118 replies to this topic

[kalbfellp]

Quote

Ortmanns do lay a fine dust on the track that can be detrimental to rubber tyres - that's why we always race rubber clad cars first.

Thanks for that, Could certainly be the answer about the podded round at Gotham Park as most of th eeurethane cars were not as effected as mush as the P3's and Ninco tyred cars.
Looks like we now know!

Re the lower clearance: Just not possible,the Ferrodore tracks are like running on wet and dry sanding paper and wear the tyres during the event. If the cars started with less than 1.5mm they would most likley be way too low after running on these tracks. Also an my track most cars running less than 0.9 mm will bottom out on the down hill section on the back straight. 1.5mm has been the exepted standard clearance for many years and if some cars can comply then it should not be a problem.

[BMR]

Im happy to run any car until I hear the spur gear scraping the track then its off to the sin bin
( big cardboard box in this case ) until it gets new shoes .
So long as the cars started with 1.6mm in the first round its ok by me if they drop a bit lower over the course of all the proxy rounds otherwise some cars may need two tyre changes to stay over the 1.6mm clearance rule . We gotta be real about it all , I doubt many would have expected the tyres to wear down so quickly.
The softer tyres on some cars may have a little advantage early in the proxy but as they wear down and get smaller in diametre they may end up handling worse and gripping less so any early advantage will be wiped out and the finish order will change about again . Thats good as it will add a bit of spice to the proxy . Still apply a tyre change penalty if they do put on new tyres though because the softies will possibly regain an advantage with new tyres on the cars .

[aastes]

Well its fair to say that all this continued crap about tyres and ride height only shows that perhaps I have the wrong attitude and look for having fun rather than 'must win' and if I dont then its some elses fault and not mine. Running this gig means I am effectively gagged from saying what I really really feel like saying

What I will say at this time is that last year we had issues about tyre treatments, this year we said none yet guys still used tyres that dont work unless they are juiced up so they were juiced up before being sent. Somewhat like a runner taking steroids leading up but not during an event

Well IMHO that sort of tyre should be banned cos if cars need to be run according to what tyres are on the cars then it aint gunna happen at my place - its fair to say the juice has left a bad taste in my mouth

[rick1776]

My guess is that someone has inadvertantly run a silicone compound by accident. I mean slotit put no markings on their tyres and a silly could have easily been fitted. I was also under the impression that ortmann made a urethane tyre with some silicone content, please correct me if Im wrong.

[BMR]

rick1776, on May 1 2009, 03:40 PM, said:

My guess is that someone has inadvertantly run a silicone compound by accident. I mean slotit put no markings on their tyres and a silly could have easily been fitted. I was also under the impression that ortmann made a urethane tyre with some silicone content, please correct me if Im wrong.

I don't know about the Ortmans but I have quizzed the MJK guys face to face about their tyres and there ain't no silicone in their tyres , they hate the stuff . Re the slot its I bought a Ferrari 312 and it came with a spare set of tyres , which I innocently put onto another car and stuffed up a lane at Imkouwl s place one night last year by accident. It took most of the night to get that lane back into order as far as grip like the other lanes and I had only done 5 - 10 practise laps on the lane . Its an easy mistake to do , pity Slot it didn't make their silies a different colour .

re aastes - its fair to say the juice has left a bad taste in my mouth , maybe we should allow some Vodka into the juice mix , don't know about the grip level getting better but the fun level should raise up a few notches

[first corner crash]

Ortmanns (old) are neither silicone or urethane but some off the shelf substance from Bayer i believe that because of the gas emitted during curing has now been banned because of the EEC anti pollution laws or so i am led to believe ( i did read once what they actually were but i can't remember) . Ortmanns have been used the world over and in previous proxy's and never has there been an issue with them. The chat about the grip thing came from Phil and he is surely an experienced enough driver to recognize if a lane is starting to lose grip. Whatever tyre is responsible it is unfortunate as nobody would do this kind of thing on purpose. I looked through the results and the stagger from first to last seems to be fairly consistent but the guys that were actually there are the best ones to make a call. It is odd that it hasn't shown up in the previous two rounds though. Also Only Espix car (to my knowledge) has ortmanns and his car qualified second so only my car and then the two slowest qualifiers fo the last couple of lanes would have followed it around under the normal way cars are raced in qualifying order. My car seems to have gone ok so it is really a bit of a mystery.

Edited by first corner crash, 01 May 2009 - 05:33 PM.

[kalbfellp]

The problem with lack of grip was not as evident in the first two rounds down here simply because the Rubber tyred cars were run first and then the "home made" tyred cars after. By home made I include any of the poured tyres, Because none have any brand on them it is almost impossible to tell what tyres are what.

As for the clearance issue what is so wrong with everyone building a car that complies with the rules??

Steve: Ypou have already banned two types of tyre in the rules:
1.4.1 NO SILICON TYRES WHAT-SO-EVER
1.4.2 No foam content allowed in the tyres.

[manimmal]

yeah i've never seen problems before with ortmanns ruining grip levels. Quite simply the Ortmann Speedy weasel tyre is the best urethane/rubber type tyre around - if you can find them.

[aastes]

Shoot me if you like but just stating the bleeding obvious I would have thought

but for every person looking in one direction there is usually a dude looking from the opposite direction wondering what all the fuss is about hence I must be that dude cos my simple head makes me think that by splitting the field into groups based on tyres may or may not be seen as showing some form of bias ie tyres that rely on wet treatment (NSR type) and tyres that are dry (MJK type) so it can be said to be done cos the dry group of cars may or may not be cleaning the track thereby rendering the treated type of tyres as less effective ie handicapping them. It could also be said that by running the treated tyres as group first you may or may not be effectively handicapping tyres that dont need treatment. Besides whos to say the tyres of concern are in the Dry group and not lurking in the wet patch
So if its now being said that the two types of tyres not compatible then one set of tyres has to go and again my logic says remove the smallest group.
Also as for Ortmanns maybe having a bit of silly con in the mix I dunno – after all are we all really sure NSR are completely 100% non silly con or Scalextric or Ninco etc etc because . . . . . .
It could even be that the tyres which need treating are now not as effective due to lack of jungle juice

Just saying it out loud for all to hear

Edited by aastes, 01 May 2009 - 07:05 PM.

[Mexico 2000]

Sold the sheep station years ago................

[rick1776]

To be perfectly fair for next years proxy I think that we should ban ALL tyres.

hat coat Im out here.

[manimmal]

rick1776, on May 1 2009, 07:14 PM, said:

To be perfectly fair for next years proxy I think that we should ban ALL tyres.

hat coat Im out here.

[first corner crash]

rick1776, on May 1 2009, 07:44 PM, said:

To be perfectly fair for next years proxy I think that we should ban ALL tyres.

hat coat Im out here.

I only hope we do not go the control tyre route. For all the argy bargy rubbish about tyres sometimes people just make an excuse for a poor car by blaming the tyres or the effect of something or other on the tyres. Sometimes as in this case there may be some substance in it. I am not sure what the answer is here but i doubt it is going to be an issue on any of the really rough raw ferradore tracks. So it may well all even up in the wash. By allowing a more open tyre rule some new compounds and better performance may be discovered. Slot it have released some new compounds and NSR had some odd looking ones at nurnberg. I also heard of the new Australian Fabio tyres still in development. All this means that new types will continue to come to market and all of us may benefit from the discovery of a really good tyre. Maybe someone will develop an all track tyre as good or better than ultra grips or ortmanns.

[kalbfellp]

The purpose of running the rubber tyred { dry ) tyres was to actually try and ensure that any wet residue from any previous racing would tend to be removed. All the cars tyres were cleaned with detergent before the event. the tracks were wiped down with Metho as we find that tends to remove any WD But not the rubber. We have used this method for 3 years and it seems to work. The race at Gotham Park was the first time we have had such a problem with lack of grip.

Quote

one set of tyres has to go

Yes I agree BUT what do we use? I don't care if they are made out of "flubber" BUT they need to be easily identified. In fact the best performing tyre last week was a home made tyre that I hope is goint to be marketed under the Starline Banner! Is is possible to produce a tyre with side wall markings moulded in,I don't see why not.
A batch could be produced and sent out to entrants when there entry is payed. Either that OR decide a commercial brand that works resonable on most surfaces AND that can be identified easily.

[aastes]

kalbfellp, on May 1 2009, 09:40 PM, said:

In fact the best performing tyre last week was a home made tyre that I hope is goint to be marketed under the Starline Banner!

Very kind words

Mate I never have nor will I ever push or promote anything I do outside the forum - which is why there is no mention on the DUPR 2009 stuff about where its stored.

[datto16]

It dont make no difference on my track......

There aint no grip anyway ya"all......


Cars will be qualified in finishing order of last round and then run acording to Q times...

Woe to any car or tyre or that even thinks about making my track any slicker than it is now.....

It may have a small accident with my ten litre bucket of Wd-40 and slide into my BBQ lighter.....

I do like the sound of Phil's track prep, I wonder if the Metho would work aswell on semigloss water based acrylic..??? (or enamel for that matter)....

Edited by datto16, 01 May 2009 - 11:37 PM.

[kalbfellp]

Quote

Very kind words

No only the truth,they still worked when it was one of the last cars run this round.

Datto my track is Cabots Eurethane finish and it aslo works well on semi gloss enamel. Not my idea one of our guys just needed to clean his track and had nothing else,so used thyen metho and it left all the rubber on the track.

[Imkouwl]

Im happy to run any non slliy tyres as long as we stay dry! Thats assuming Im acepted as a host for next year.

[BMR]

Im more than happy to use a well marked control tyre , in almost all real world motorsport racing realms they use a control tyre and then each team makes their machine do its best on that tyre . The Open tyre rule in the proxy is the main and by far the biggest problem we have , so why keep with an open tyre rule ?
Surely people can set up a car on a control tyre just as easily as setting it up on there favourite tyre . The competition could only get closer and the best set up cars will win instead of just the best tyre on the day .
I would prefer a dry grip tyre as it keeps the wet additives off my track so when I have my normal racing nights after a proxy round I won't have any problems . Those that run a wet track so to speak normally should be able to run a dry tyre for one proxy round and have no problems afterwards .
Of course we need to look at which tracks will be available next year and ask the track owners to test a control tyre or two so we can find something that works reasonably well on the different surfaces ? Thats the hard part huh ? Bridgestone or Dunlop ?

[triggy]

Re Control tyre: At the end of this Proxy, the results " should " show what tyre worked well on all surfaces/ overall shouldn't it ?
(what was the dominant tyre used on the higher finishing cars)

Problem solved?