92 replies to this topic

[BMR]

Are we going to limit the drivers to use the same cars that they started the 6 week season with throughout the 6 rounds of the GT2 / NASCAR series ?
I think we should , if we allow the cars to be swapped around by a driver at a different track then it isn't really a test of the car and driver combo. Just to add a finer point to the competition.

It was interesting to run the scrutineering eyes over the cars as well to see how they rated against the new rules on Flag , track clearance , rpm limit . Some will not pass if they remain as they are for next year. The calculation on the RPM was interesting a 18500 motor according to Scalextric did 22000+ on the tester at 12v ? Im not saying there was anything suss about that RPM it was just a note that all three NASCARS that finished in the first 3 places were over 20000rpm ? My car included in that lot (which I know to be a standard motor) It begs the question - how accurate is the RPM checking system ? 20% over 18500 was talked about as acceptable ....which is actually 22200 .

mmmmm...... Wheres that NSR Shark motor I had lying around !

Dennis had a chat with Jordan and I think they were looking at constructing a method to measure motor torque , it will be good if they can measure it as it does play a big part in the cars performance.

A motor with more torque can pull more weight along and still perform well but a low torque motor will struggle a bit and have a slight performance drop off, eg Ninco NC5 20000 vs Scalextric 18500 or even the Sport 20000 motor ....gram for gram in ballast and the Ninco should go harder, as its got more torque . If we do find a way to accurately measure torque and if we do find that there is a large difference in power levels , What if anything could we do to even things out between the brands ?

Just a bit more food for thought there guys ... open discussion

[lenny broke]

post deleted

Edited by lenny broke, 20 November 2007 - 06:02 AM.

[hoffy]

I think that the current method for measuring motor RPM is unreliable. It proves just about nothing. If we say that the RPM of the average motor is as per the packet specs, we are deluding ourselves. These are toy car motor's, not the finest ferrari or porsche can produce. Do I have an answer? One thing that I dont want to see is a) a 1 make series & having to pull my motor out because out of the box it performs differently to someone elses (Unless it is an absolute jet)

OK, here's the thing. If people want (& Jordan/Kym are up for it. They have the measuring equipment), come around to my track on Friday night (needs some rubbering up anyway). Bring along all your standard Scalextric cars & lets measure them. I think you will find that very few are at the rated RPM.

Now, for the nights racing, agree'd. You change cars between heats, you either have a penalty or you stop scoring. I must admit that I dont mind the idea that we keep the same car for the whole series, but what happens if you car does get totally trashed during the first night? Does that now mean you are out for the next 5 weeks?

This is good healthy discussion (& lets not get like our cousins east of the border...)

[triggy]

I agree no car change during the heats..unless diabolical mechanical issues ..then a penalty of some sort would also apply..."that's toymotor racing"
I don't mind the idea of using the same car for the 6 rounds, just allowing for changes with braid, tyres and weight.
However...most of us would have 3 different type of cars that we could race in the GT2 class. If we had to use the same car for the 6 round series then the other 2 cars wouldn't get a run for almost 3 month until the next GT2 class was run... and that's if we wanted to change cars depending on the success of the car run in the previous series.

P.S. come the proper series next year we will have to make sure the race director or his pointscoring side kick have pen & paper on hand at each meet to take note of missed laps etc

[hoffy]

Hey, I took note

[BMR]

This is good healthy discussion (& lets not get like our cousins east of the border...)

I think as we run these nights ahead of next years season we will pickup on little things that we can chat about and that way we should have all the bugs sorted out before the season starts huh. Im for using more cars in the GT2 class and yes I totally agree with using only the one car on the night - make your choice and stick with it. Barring a major catastrophe where a person can then put on there spare car if they have one ( provided its checked and suits the class thats being raced in on the night. )
Waynes comment was spot on when he said no cross class cars - meaning something like a DTM entered as a NASCAR or a JGTC entered as an AMC . If you have the correct car and its checked to be on spec and its going then you have to use it for that class , there have been times when a wide low sports car has been raced against a tall skinny Aussie V8 even though the racer has had an V8 car he has decided his sports car is faster so he races with it .
A new person to the club should be allowed to use cross class cars to race as they will probably only have one or two cars so we cant really welcome a new player by saying "sorry you will have to sit this one out" but a member that has run with the club for 3-4 months or more should have the correct cars . By the time the new season starts everybody has really had ample time to get a GT2 or NASCAR up to spec and we will have plenty of notice after that on whatever the next two car classes will be huh ?
Has anything been mentioned about what we will run with on the first 6 weeks of the new season?
We may be all getting tired of the GT2 and NASCARS by then.

[triggy]

hoffy, on Sep 25 2007, 10:17 PM, said:

Hey, I took note

I know you did....but it didn't get through to the pointscorer as it wasn't reflected in the final positions /scores.(not making a fuss as it is only test runs at the moment)

That's the beauty of having these test runs we can sort out / fix /alter / include, any bits into the procedures, rules and regs.

Edited by triggy, 26 September 2007 - 12:14 PM.

[triggy]

BMR, on Sep 26 2007, 12:21 AM, said:

Has anything been mentioned about what we will run with on the first 6 weeks of the new season?
We may be all getting tired of the GT2 and NASCARS by then.

I agree with everything you said Steve.

Yes 2 different classes to start next season would be nice for a change. As Wayne said on the night, all racers should know by end of November what we are starting with next season so we can get cars ready, or new ones for Christmas prezzies .

[triggy]

Sorry... double post

Edited by triggy, 26 September 2007 - 12:15 PM.

[lenny broke]

post deleted

Edited by lenny broke, 20 November 2007 - 06:02 AM.

[rick1776]

Howdy guys,

Ive been out of the loop for a while now and expect it to last for another month or two. Have the car categories and allowed mods been finalised now? If so can I get a copy.

Measure 50 scaly motors and see what the variation is. Then add 5% on top of the fastest measured motor. Anything faster than that gets pulled out.

Now as far as parity between Ninco and Scaly that becomes real hard. Ninco's have a lot more torque. Youre swapping RPM for torque. Perhaps a torque X RPM value? i.e. A 20K rpm motor with 100g.cm torque would be equivalent to 10K rpm motor with 200g.cm torque. For the slow motor all you would need to do is gear it down by a factor of two to increase the rpm up to 20K but that would mean a decrease of torque by a factor of two, down to 100g.cm.

Building a torque measuring piece of kit is easy. All you need is a digital balance that measures down to 0.1g. You take off one of the wheels and replace it with a 5cm long lever held onto the rear axle with a grub screw. Lets say the balance reads 100g. The torque is then 100X5 = 500g.cm. You then need to take into account the gear ratio, for a scaly car this is typically 3.27 so the torque produced by the motor is 500/3.27 = 153g.cm.

Could get a little messy. Alternative is STD scaly and Ninco NC5 motors only?

cheers
rick1776

[Imkouwl]

triggy, on Sep 26 2007, 11:44 AM, said:

Sorry... double post

Thats actually a tripple post triggy

I agree, stay with the car u chose at the beigining of the night even though i changed my nascar half way through

I also believe we are trying to do our best in evening out the playing field with RPM

I wonder how close the racing would be if all the motors were the same? I imagin that there would probably be 1 or 2 laps difference through the whole field of drivers.

[Imkouwl]

OHHHHH you better move this aswell

[triggy]

Hi Rick,
I wouldn't want the tech guys pulling off one of my plastic scaley wheels to check RPM etc...it probably wouldn't go back on the same

There was some discussion on Monday night re the correct way to measure the torque by way of a little gadget that Jordan may make up to test the cars under load...too technical for me to give the finer details
Rules and classes are still being "formulated" . Give them about a month before release.

[Imkouwl]

Thats correct Rick it does get very messy and placing a maximum RPM on the motor is a good start in making a championship closer for all drivers. Its not an absolute perfect solution but its the best we can do with out buying matching motors for all competitors.

[BMR]

rick1776, on Sep 26 2007, 01:50 PM, said:

Howdy guys,

Ive been out of the loop for a while now and expect it to last for another month or two. Have the car categories and allowed mods been finalised now? If so can I get a copy.

Measure 50 scaly motors and see what the variation is. Then add 5% on top of the fastest measured motor. Anything faster than that gets pulled out.

Now as far as parity between Ninco and Scaly that becomes real hard. Ninco's have a lot more torque. Youre swapping RPM for torque. Perhaps a torque X RPM value? i.e. A 20K rpm motor with 100g.cm torque would be equivalent to 10K rpm motor with 200g.cm torque. For the slow motor all you would need to do is gear it down by a factor of two to increase the rpm up to 20K but that would mean a decrease of torque by a factor of two, down to 100g.cm.

Building a torque measuring piece of kit is easy. All you need is a digital balance that measures down to 0.1g. You take off one of the wheels and replace it with a 5cm long lever held onto the rear axle with a grub screw. Lets say the balance reads 100g. The torque is then 100X5 = 500g.cm. You then need to take into account the gear ratio, for a scaly car this is typically 3.27 so the torque produced by the motor is 500/3.27 = 153g.cm.

Could get a little messy. Alternative is STD scaly and Ninco NC5 motors only?

cheers
rick1776

If ya can't blind em with brilliance , then baffle em with bullshit ! hehehe no offense Rick ya lost me on that answer but keep the technical answers coming Im learning .....I think ?
I managed to peg a lever onto the chassis made from a bread bag tag and aimed it to run against the spur gear with the spur running at 22000rpm and the gearing being 3.27272727 , the power set at 12.6v I noticed the wind resistance from the tyres was at 2.5487 knots taking into account the directional tread pattern and the surrounding air temperature and humidity levels the bread tag managed to flap at a level nearing 97db , when I combined this db with the max RPM 97db x 22k , I found that no matter what the RPM level I could not hear myself torque .

[Slider]

Quote

If ya can't blind em with brilliance , then baffle em with bullshit ! hehehe no offense Rick ya lost me on that answer but keep the technical answers coming Im learning .....I think ?
I managed to peg a lever onto the chassis made from a bread bag tag and aimed it to run against the spur gear with the spur running at 22000rpm and the gearing being 3.27272727 , the power set at 12.6v I noticed the wind resistance from the tyres was at 2.5487 knots taking into account the directional tread pattern and the surrounding air temperature and humidity levels the bread tag managed to flap at a level nearing 97db , when I combined this db with the max RPM 97db x 22k , I found that no matter what the RPM level I could not hear myself torque .

It Must be that Adelaide water

[hoffy]

I see what you are trying to achieve rick, but that would be torque at 0 revs? That wouldn't be the same as the maximum torque would it?

[3ofus]

steve i was checking the results you got and i tried it several times and what i think you have done is put your directional tyre going the in wrong direction so if you were to reposition your tyre to go in the right direction then the results will become a lot clearer also if possible remove the printed use by date off the bread bag tag (the extra ink tends to increase the oscillations

I agree we have a lot of trial and erroring to do before we get to a stage where we are all satisfied , iwould like to see the drivers a bit more organised we could keep a runing sheet on whos next and they get 3 mins to get their car readywith less than 20 racers and 3 min heats 1.5 hours for a series is too long

[triggy]

Dave,
Jordan & I were also talking about the time it was taking to run the 4 heats. We actually timed the change over of drivers ( race finish to next race start) 1 took 35 seconds another took 80 seconds so we averaged a driver changeover at around 1 min. Therefore 18 drivers ( as was the case Monday night ) x 1min = 18 mins downtime + 18 races x 3 mins = 54 mins = 1 1/4hrs so we weren't far off the mark. With the bigger tracks like BMR, AMR it will take some drivers the full minute to get their car and get to the first drivers station. Knowing who was on next prior to the start of the night would certainly help. Keep the same driver order for both classes for the night.
It was suggested that we run 1 class for 3mins then the next class for 2mins then the next week we swap the time limit around for the classes.