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Sidewinder Motor Doubled Up

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Problem: It’s been brought to my attention (about a year ago) by slot car tech gurus secret.gif that the Sidewinder Motor’s Achilles heel it this: Because more torque is applied to one side of car, the car tends to pull unevenly and tends to slip which is especially noticeable on wood tracks.

Potential Solution: I’ve been thinking about this for awhile (you think a lot when you are a habitual martini drinker freak.gif… although it’s not as conducive to action) and thought that this problem could be solved by adding two gears to each side of the motor. I thought this would balance out the torque. Has everyone ever tried or seen this setup? If so, what has the success rate been?

 

Of course this is partially addressed by the anglewinder, but I’m still curious if anyone has tried to retrofit the sidewinder.

 

I’d really love some input on this.

 

-68Deville AKA 68Caddy

badboy2.gif


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-Nesta aka 68CadAvatars_Sneaky.gifdy

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A case of thinking too hard.

 

The sidewinder may apply torque to one side, but seeing as you've got a locked axle, both wheels always get exactly the same torque. Maybe they think there's enough torque to twist the axle?!

 

If you want to talk about chassis flex caused by torque reaction, that's different. Most of our cars are deliberately flexy, and this means that in-lines actually suffer worst (balance the rear of an inline car up at the middle, so it's free to pivot side to side, and give it a rev. Note how much it twists).

 

So, if people THINK that sidewinders pull to one side because of torque, they're wrong. Most probably it's a simple matter of the motor not being mounted in the centre, resulting in an uneven weight distributions, thereby causing some lateral pull. This especially probable if these 'gurus' are running in 1/24.

Edited by oldtamiyaphile

32nd Reich - For all models 1/32 - Back On-line.

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I also think that any gain that you might have from the second gear would be lost in friction, ect. & if Tamiya is correct, this would result in a loss in general. People have been playing with slotcars now for long enough. If this was going to give an advantage, everyone who does scratch building would be doing it


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If 1/24 is the car under discussion, then the so-called guru's are stupid and not winning races. Other than that, they are liars. :D

 

First thing to remember with ANY sidewinder is that the only torque movment generated is by the motor rocking from side to side as it fights the resistance of the drive axle. This twisting motion is ALONG the central axis of the car, not across it thus negating the possibilty of sideways sliding. Second, torque is a rotational force, not a vector, hence no side movement again. You will probably find that the sideways movement is from the spinning of the wheels on a sloping track which will happen with any car that can spin wheels.

 

I really do hate the bozzo's that diseminate false or misleading info as it only drives people away when what they are told doesn't work. :ph34r:

 

I've had my dummy spit now so I will go away.

 

Cheers :)


Stu

 

Old racers race harder

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i can see where 68 deville is getting too - my opinion would be theoretically along the same track as him - as the motor is closer to one wheel its not the torque but the slight differential in weight balance that may cause this.. try putting a softer compound wheel on this side first to see if it may make a difference...

 

thats my logical (but theoretical) synopsis :D:ph34r:

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We tried and tested this about 10 years ago on !/24 drag trucks , it was done to help prevent gears from stripping on a heavily gooed start line with large amounts of torque being produced , it helped ,with that scenario , but a was an abosulte pig to set up on a chassis , , as far as on a circuit , not worth the effort , cannot see any advantages

sax

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I have noticed that sidewinders generally run straighter than other setups. I found that the few times my inline cars have been kicking sideways, "under brakes at least" that the axle has not been evenll set up. Too much out one side.

 

Those in our race group who run sidewinders have found them to be the most balanced. They brake very straight and strong as the weight transfer is forward into the guide, unlike inline and angle winders which have sideways weight transer due to the motor spinning 90 degrees to the difection of travel.

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You are all true gear heads. Great responses. mfclap.gif

 

I had a sneaking suspition that the double gearing would not work as anticipated. The intricate explanations of the inner workings of each motors helped in understanding exactly why the solution was unsound as is.

 

I appreciate all of the responses (time, effort and debate). After all, although I'm proficient, I wouldn't say I'm a mechanical engineer by any stretch of the imagination. idiot.gif

 

-68Deville AKA 68 Caddy

badboy2.gif

 

BTW - I use both 1/24 and 1/32 scale but weigh more heavily in the later.


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-Nesta aka 68CadAvatars_Sneaky.gifdy

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Don't worry, mate, we all need help at times no matter how proficient we are :D


Stu

 

Old racers race harder

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Heyo,

 

To fix the torque problems of inline motor setups, how about something like this:

 

Dual4001.jpg

 

(image stolen from this website)

 

set up the gears so that the motors are spining in opposite directions (but all the wheels are still pushing the car forward) and the acceleration and braking reaction torques in the motors will be equal and opposite so they will cancel out....

 

 

What i dont understand is why angle winders are so popular, to my way of thinking it would produce an combination of lateral and transverse torques in the chassis, which cant be good for balance under breaking and acceleration???

 

cya

Rene.


An unmodified car is like a blank sheet of paper, aching to be drawn on.

 

Ren's 3 lane routed track with analogue pits and 2 car sudden death.

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set up the gears so that the motors are spining in opposite directions (but all the wheels are still pushing the car forward) and the acceleration and braking reaction torques in the motors will be equal and opposite so they will cancel out....

 

 

What i dont understand is why angle winders are so popular, to my way of thinking it would produce an combination of lateral and transverse torques in the chassis, which cant be good for balance under breaking and acceleration???

 

cya

Rene.

Rene -

 

youre missing out on beautiful Patent here !!!!!

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Heyo,

 

To fix the torque problems of inline motor setups, how about something like this:

 

Dual4001.jpg

 

(image stolen from this website)

 

set up the gears so that the motors are spining in opposite directions (but all the wheels are still pushing the car forward) and the acceleration and braking reaction torques in the motors will be equal and opposite so they will cancel out....

 

 

What i dont understand is why angle winders are so popular, to my way of thinking it would produce an combination of lateral and transverse torques in the chassis, which cant be good for balance under breaking and acceleration???

 

cya

Rene.

Rene,

 

Angle winders are a compromise, not the end result of a design exercise.

 

The ideal setup is sidewinder, but the centre line of the motor ends up a long way away from the rear axle, which requires larger gears.

 

Larger gears mean bigger wheel diameters, which in turn usually mean higher centre of gravity.

 

The flexi, and wing car guys go for small wheels to get cofg low, so this means small gears, which forces the motor to be kicked around at an angle to get the mesh right.

 

They have tried idler gears, but that doesn't seen too successful. So, anglewinders have become the norm.

 

That twin motor job reminds me of the Russkit 'Black Widow' cars of the 60's. Towards the end of the boom times Russkit had a stack of their '22' motors and wanted to use them up, so they put out 4wd using 2 motors in same format as that scratch built. There was a Lotus GP, and a couple? of sports cars (Lola T70 for one). They didn't seem to work too good tho.

B)


Steve K.

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I put 2 motors like that scratch built in a drag ute, didn't go that well at all, I disconnected the front motor and it ran ok, disconnected the rear motor and it ran slow, the front wheels couldn't get traction, I put it down to (I could be way wrong here) that the front axle was being lifted from behind and lifting, trying to lift the front wheels off the ground, and I put suspension in it and weight, but no good,

 

cheeers

Edited by Gyprock

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heyo

 

@lavenlaar, unfortunatly this is not my design :o wish it was though, how cool is it?!?!

 

@slotbaker, aaaah, i see now. i wonder if a tiny chain and sproket would work... probalby too fiddly and fragile at that size though. Interesting you should mention the russkit, if u click the web like below the picture, they talk about it also.

 

@Gyprock, maybe reconfigure the drag ute so that both motors are driving the rear wheels...

 

cya

Rene.


An unmodified car is like a blank sheet of paper, aching to be drawn on.

 

Ren's 3 lane routed track with analogue pits and 2 car sudden death.

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Yeah I did Rene and put the 2 motors into a VW,it kept wheel standing at any part of the strip, never got time to gear it right but geez it had power.

 

cheeers gene

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Gene, one thing you have to remember when putting 2 motors in the same chassis, they have to be PERFECTLY matched or they will only go as fast as the slowest motor will allow. This is because the faster motor is trying to make the slower one rev harder than it can and so they fight each other resulting in one burning out.

 

Cheers


Stu

 

Old racers race harder

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WTF???

 

After reading your article I can understand why it's never turned a wheel in anger - it would be a bugger changing the tyres each lap.

 

But very impresive :blink:

Edited by Sports Racer

May the downforce be with you.

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Wonder if there is anything in our rulebook which limits one engine per car on Bo's track.

 

Hmmmmmmm.............


May the downforce be with you.

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I remember seeing a car which had dual, side by side motors like the 4 engine car, but only at the rear. Except it a split axle and the motors wired in series, which created a differential effect. Cool idea. If you want to see this effect, try wiring two motors in series, power to one motor then the other side to the second motor and then back to the power supply. If you grab one shaft, the other will spin faster!


PeteN95

from the Northwest US of A!

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