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Lee D

Scalextric DeLorean tyres ruined grip on my routed track

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Hi All,

I have only just joined this forum and I have my own 2 lane routed track which is painted with roof paint (the exact name escapes me right now).  I use rubber tyres only with a mix of mostly MJK tyres with some NSR tyres, with stock Thunderslot tyres. 

A mate recently bough the brand new Scalextric DeLorean "Back to the Future" 2 and they are not standard Scalextric tyres but whatever they are it ruined the grip for my track.  It generally takes about 5 to 6 seconds to do a lap but on average cars were about a second slower.  I ended up cleaning the track with hot soapy water and initially it was very slippery but after about four hours the track has gripped up again and is almost back to where it was (about 0.2 seconds off now).  

Any idea why these tyres would do this?  I thought only silicon tyres could foul a track where rubber tyres are used?  My only idea is that the tyres have a tread pattern and it removed the rubber off the track?

Thanks in advance for any feedback, I'm just keen to prevent anything like this happening again.

Lee

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The car could be fitted with silicon tyres,Scalex marketed silicon tyres some years ago, under the the Scalex Sport name.Are you sure he has not changed the tyres?

The tread on the tyres should not make any difference.

 

 

 

Edited by kalbfellp

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Thanks for the insight, I never knew Scalextric has released silicon tyres previously.  I haven't seen silicon tyres before so I'm not sure I would recognise them.  I have since removed the tyres and replaced them with mjk tyres.  

It's brand new out of the box, this is his first ever car so he wouldn't even know what silicon tyres would be.  

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16 hours ago, Lee D said:

Hi All,

......  I thought only silicon tyres could foul a track where rubber tyres are used?  My only idea is that the tyres have a tread pattern and it removed the rubber off the track?

Thanks in advance for any feedback, I'm just keen to prevent anything like this happening again.

Lee

Actually, that silicon thing you mentioned is an old wives tale anyway.
Our club and some national events did run silicons for about 2 years, alongside assorted rubber tyres on our routed tracks.
I never came across any instance of silicons. 

a ) "laying down a film of silicon that ruined the rubber grip"
or
b ) "removing the build-up of rubber" (by making it stick to the tyres)

I did when running an international proxy come across instances of plonkers cleaning their silicon tyres with all sorts of solvents between heats,
(resulting in a pink film on the silicons as the solvent dosed tyres collected, and reacted with rubber on the track surface and stuck the whole shebang to the tyres)

We simply gave up using silicons because we could get more consistent, and higher grip with treated soft rubbers over time, especially with tyre treatment.
Plus all lathes could do a good job with soft rubbers, whereas silicons took up to 12 hours on a lathe if you had a sandpaper drum/flat plate versus a diamond or hard still abrasive drum.

It is more likely that the treaded tyres on that car just happened to rough up the surface, or in some way are pulling rubber build up from the track surface through abrasive action.
You would be able to tell pretty quickly if the tyres were silicon - they would resist cutting, and would be impervious to treating with any solvent.
You could "clean" them with say fuelite. If they react, they aren't silicon


Walks upright Unaided  *  Ties Own Shoelaces  *  Can Mispronounce Own Name In Five Languages  *  Mostly Aims Rattle Cans Away from Self
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Your NZ tracks are weird - bright colours and silicone resistant.

We've had so many issues with silicone tyres running with rubber/urethane that we banned silicone on all 14 Canberra tracks including the commercial track - Way2fast.

Last year Way2fast ran a 2 part enduro on their 8 lane track. The 1st 4 hours were with Scalex rental cars (with magnets), 2nd 4 hours with non magnet cars running rubber/urethane. The cars running in the 2nd half had to race on a slippery surface because the Scalex cars took the grip away. Because of this the shop owner replaced all the tyres on his Scalextric rental cars with MJK's. 

Paul


May the downforce be with you.

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1 hour ago, Sports Racer said:

Your NZ tracks are weird - bright colours and silicone resistant.

 

I have some background in the chemical industry Paul, I went through this a decade ago when it was a hot topic, and utterly destroyed every false premise about silicons

Just for a start - they are chemically inert and stable. There isn't even any solvent commonly used around slot tracks which can affect or degrade them.
That is why similar silicon compounds are used as valve seats and seals on the valves of IBC tanks containing aggressive, acids, alkalis and petro-chemical solvent cuts.
I could tell you stories about the wrong seals being used on IBC tanks and pipe fittings, and the resulting port closures, factory evacuations, but you'd lose interest quite quickly.

They do not shed any "film", they do not magically spit out a portion of their simple inorganic compound, and anyone who says otherwise is simply acting off false interpretation of what is taking place in their track environment - to their detriment and continued ignorance.
At the time I was "proving this" I also conducted solvent tests, just as demonstration; so best you leave the subject to those who act out of facts, not myth.

FWIW - what I HAVE seen, is that tracks which have been rubbered up - especially with tyres using treatments, when the rubber “goo” builds is sticky, IT can stick to other surfaces…. Eg such as silicon tyres - but also to urethanes, steel rollers, plastic tyres etc, but it has nothing to do with silicon per-se, only to to with the way the track has become coated, and what with, from rubber tyre use and -in most cases - form of tyre treatment  

essentially - a misdiagnosed problem, with a solution which resolved the issue - but not through understanding, merely by removing the perceived cause.


Walks upright Unaided  *  Ties Own Shoelaces  *  Can Mispronounce Own Name In Five Languages  *  Mostly Aims Rattle Cans Away from Self
 My Track Oakland Raceway V2     Our Club  HMBRC     

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We can run a car with MJK's on a lane and it will get good grip. Run one with silicone tyres for 3 min on that lane then run the MJK car again and the lap times will be much slower.

I know there's no scientific reason but real world testing on several of our tracks show otherwise. 

The silicone tyres seem to lift the rubber off the track and it sticks to the silicone. The more you clean the rubber residue off the silicone tyres the more they keep cleaning the track until there's no more rubber to lift.


May the downforce be with you.

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3 hours ago, Sports Racer said:

We can run a car with MJK's on a lane and it will get good grip. Run one with silicone tyres for 3 min on that lane then run the MJK car again and the lap times will be much slower.

I know there's no scientific reason but real world testing on several of our tracks show otherwise. 

The silicone tyres seem to lift the rubber off the track and it sticks to the silicone. The more you clean the rubber residue off the silicone tyres the more they keep cleaning the track until there's no more rubber to lift.

I have no argument with that,  all that is happening, is that the urethanes are depositing material onto the track surface, which sticks, and aids further urethanes to grip to the "doctored" track surface.

But the usual charges against silicons

a ) "laying down a film of silicon that ruined the rubber grip"
or
b ) "removing the build-up of rubber" (by making it stick to the tyres)

Are both untrue.

In fact, if you used treated soft rubber tyres after the urethanes - the same thing would likely happen.
If you routinely used treated rubber tyres, then switched to urethanes - a similar thing would happen.

But if you run a clean track - you can run any combination of tyres that you wish, without the slightest issue of incompatibility between compounds/tyre types.

BTW - I didn't mention before but

4 hours ago, Sports Racer said:

Your NZ tracks are weird - bright colours and silicone resistant.

Bright coloured tracks ? 
That comment showed how absolutely little idea you have about the NZ slot scene.
Having supplied the braid, router bits and timing systems for around 120 tracks in NZ, I feel I have a reasonably good handle on the market and hobby here.

There was ONE - I repeat WAS just ONE blue track built by Chris Wong in 2009, with a 2 pot gloss surface in a pale blue.
(and a very nice track it was, factory built at a furniture and caravan company, it raised the bar on track quality.)
npsr.jpg
That is the only track I could imagine fits the description of "bright" . Chris' track has been mothballed for several years, as the magnabraid rusted after it was moved to a waterfront location.

FWIW - I don't know of any clubs running silicon tyres in NZ.
I sold about 10 packs of Slot.it S1 and S2, and a few packs of indiygrips and max-track the past few years, and about 50 packs of my own urethanes, versus about 25,000-30,000 packs of soft rubbers from the 5 usual suspects. NSR, Sideways Slot.it, Policar and ScaleAuto


Walks upright Unaided  *  Ties Own Shoelaces  *  Can Mispronounce Own Name In Five Languages  *  Mostly Aims Rattle Cans Away from Self
 My Track Oakland Raceway V2     Our Club  HMBRC     

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You run one blue track and you're tainted for life. 

Plus all the smurfs in the background. :D

Edited by Sports Racer

May the downforce be with you.

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17 hours ago, Sports Racer said:

You run one blue track and you're tainted for life. 

Plus all the smurfs in the background. :D

I cannot possibly argue with that :lol::lol:

Except them ain’t smurfs, they’re a selection from the FBIs most wanted list 


Walks upright Unaided  *  Ties Own Shoelaces  *  Can Mispronounce Own Name In Five Languages  *  Mostly Aims Rattle Cans Away from Self
 My Track Oakland Raceway V2     Our Club  HMBRC     

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This topic of Silicones removing grip (built up rubber) from the track has been raised may times people seem to be firmly in one of the two camps.

I do not have a chemical degree so I can only comment on my personal experience on the number of tracks I have had over the years.

Our group currently allows rubber, urethanes and silicones. The only thing we allow to clean tyres is water with a drop of dishwashing soap.

My personal experience is that I have not noticed any difference in the grip level of rubber or urethane tyres after having run silicone tyres on the track.

As has been mentioned if the track is dusty the silicone tyres will quickly loose grip until they have collected the dust from the track. You need to clean the silicone tyres with water to remove the dust. A dusty track does not affect rubber tyres to the same degree as it affects silicones. Silicones defiantly need a dust free track to work.

Even within our race group there is division and some races do not like silicone tyres running on the track when they are running rubber tyres. My option is simple whoever is the track owner makes the decision whether to allow a particular tyre type.

What I can confirm is that normally I remove the dust off the track with a cloth and when the cloth is dry there is no impact on track grip if however I dampen the cloth in water and clean the track I have less grip with rubber tyres until a bit of build up is returned to the track. Obviously silicone tyres have excellent grip when I have cleaned the track with a damp cloth.

The biggest thing I have found with track grip is not if you are running a mixture of tyre compounds but the actual track surface temperature and humidity. How hot or cold it is on the day seems to affect grip more than anything else other than dust and cleaning a track with a wet cloth.

As I said this is my opinion but it does seem that new racers looking for advice on what tyres to run are being influenced maybe incorrectly by experienced racers long held opinions and beliefs. Maybe when some racers find they loose grip on rubber tyres after running silicones it might be what was done to the track rather than the old silicone debate.

Just for the record I mostly run rubber tyres however the odd car is running silicone 

 

Just my 2 cents worth

 

 

 

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Occasionally Scalextric release a car with duff tyres eg BMW Z4 GT? ..... The tyres on almost all liveries of this were pig tyres and couldn't be trued and had as much grip as slick tyres on ice. Maybe the DeLorean tyres have a similar compound or at least a compound that causes problems for other types of tyre.


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On 11/3/2021 at 9:30 AM, tsmsoccer said:

Our group currently allows rubber, urethanes and silicones. The only thing we allow to clean tyres is water with a drop of dishwashing soap.

I do the same, I only allow to clean the tyres with water with dishwashing soap but also to sand the tyres on wet & dry sandpapper with the water & dishwashing soap.

On 11/3/2021 at 9:30 AM, tsmsoccer said:

What I can confirm is that normally I remove the dust off the track with a cloth and when the cloth is dry there is no impact on track grip if however I dampen the cloth in water and clean the track I have less grip with rubber tyres until a bit of build up is returned to the track. Obviously silicone tyres have excellent grip when I have cleaned the track with a damp cloth.

Using a damp cloth to clean the track I did lose grip initially but after few hours the track gripped up again

Thanks for your insight.  I'm more curious if anyone else has had similar experiences 

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On 11/3/2021 at 1:55 PM, Wobble said:

Occasionally Scalextric release a car with duff tyres eg BMW Z4 GT? ..... The tyres on almost all liveries of this were pig tyres and couldn't be trued and had as much grip as slick tyres on ice. Maybe the DeLorean tyres have a similar compound or at least a compound that causes problems for other types of tyre.

That's good to know that Scalextric have done this in the past so it's possible they have done it again with the Delorean.  

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On 11/6/2021 at 7:20 PM, kalbfellp said:

There is a Rubber versus Silicon test on You Tube conducted in the US. Times for  rubber tyres increased 3 tenths after running Silicon tyres on the track.

I have seen a few on youtube.  It's interesting to see the results people get

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