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Group C rules around world

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Thanks Shaynus. Interesting you allow weight. We had Mario from Thunderslot in NZ a while ago and he was surprised we allowed weight in Thunderslot. Regards Chas Le Breton

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These are the rules we were using for many years, nothing much has changed, keeps everything even and close ........

1. Slot.it Group C

 

Body

Standard no modifications.

Must have wing if it comes with one.

Wheels must not protrude outside the body when viewed from above.

 

Chassis

Standard chassis as came with car. May have flashing cleaned off to allow body tilt.

No other mods to chassis.

Motor mount can be replaced. Eg Inline to sidewinder or Angle winder.

Slot.it Magnetic suspension may be used.

 

Wheels

Slot.it wheels only.

Can upsize rears to give scale look. 15mm for 17mm.

Wheel inserts must be installed.

 

Tyres

Slot It Tyres Only

 

Motor

Any Slot.it motor can be used.

V12 / 2, V12 / 3, Boxer or Boxer 2.

Weight may be added.

 

Gearing

Free Gearing ratio's, Slot.it only.

 

Cars

Porsche 956 and 962

Sauber Mercedes

Jaguar XJ9 R

Lancia LC2

Mazda 787

Toyota

 

........ basically all Slot-it 


Quickly read this post before it is deleted or i turn grey again

Gary

http://www.facebook.com/Rallyproxy2017

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2 hours ago, charlesx said:

Thanks Shaynus. Interesting you allow weight. We had Mario from Thunderslot in NZ a while ago and he was surprised we allowed weight in Thunderslot. Regards Chas Le Breton

Mario's cars (and everyone other manufacturer's) have around  20 grams of "magnetic lead" built into them for European tracks - motor magnets on plastic tracks.
The ones with boxers have up to 30 when set up.

You can't compare the European environment with ours.


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Thanks Gary for your local rules and SlotsNZ for your additional remarks.

I hear what you say Mark but we are not magnet racers. Non-magnet racing is supposed to be more skilled. Have reviewed new rules which have just been put on NZSCA site (they were not there this morning as far far as I am aware) or when I viewed before Wellington meeting but my interpretation is no different.

Sorry to be such a pain but major rule changes should be clearly circulated, discussed/explained and vetted. It may have been intention to allow ballast and on-going oil treatment for Group C but that is not what rules say. I think people have just assumed.

Regards Chas Le Breton (charlesx)

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10 hours ago, charlesx said:

Thanks Gary for your local rules and SlotsNZ for your additional remarks.

I hear what you say Mark but we are not magnet racers. Non-magnet racing is supposed to be more skilled. Have reviewed new rules which have just been put on NZSCA site (they were not there this morning as far far as I am aware) or when I viewed before Wellington meeting but my interpretation is no different.

Sorry to be such a pain but major rule changes should be clearly circulated, discussed/explained and vetted. It may have been intention to allow ballast and on-going oil treatment for Group C but that is not what rules say. I think people have just assumed.

Regards Chas Le Breton (charlesx)


Nothing was assumed.  
Tony C. rewrote the rules when he took over running the Nats and hosting in the South Island, so that was probably 2016 or 2017 ?
[ Not sure exactly, as that was when we were living in Spain ] 

But for certain, the Group C rules we raced under on the weekend have been in place since at least 2018 when I was back in NZ.
The main changes as at 2018 were from memory - weight permitted, tyre treatment permitted, spacers now free, 1172N22 tyres permitted as well as the 1171N22.

I remember this fairly well, because I had a long debate with Shane at Pitlane both in organiser emails and on NZ Slot Racers forum or Messenger about how they were going to manage the tyre treatments use there. That was the first time I raced with weight in Group C cars, but fairly soon afterwards, HB club decided to adopt the NZSCA rules for our local Group C, as despite my misgivings, the cars do run sweeter on our local tracks with a bit of weight. 

I have a feeling the NZSCA site has been rebuilt - a new site essentially in the past 2 years, and the RTR nats weren't run last year due to Covid.
It may be that we as RTR had our rules omitted from the new site in error. But if that is the case, you would just ask Mike as host, or Tony as NZSCA RTR rep, for a copy of said rules, and prepare your car accordingly. Outside of that, what rules WOULD you have prepared your car under?

No we are not magnet racers, and most clubs in NZ run on wood tracks and use weight in most classes. It really is that simple.

I pointed out that your remarks vis a vis Mario and Thunderslot were irrelevant and that they use motor magnet down-force in Europe on plastic tracks, to perform an equivalent job to weight in the chassis. 
"Supposed to be more skilled"  So you are now implying that if people tune their car balance and handling characteristics (all in symphony under agreed rules) with weight;  that they must be less skillful.
Really Charles? Really ? You're digging yourself a bit of a hole here mate.


Walks upright Unaided  *  Ties Own Shoelaces  *  Can Mispronounce Own Name In Five Languages  *  Mostly Aims Rattle Cans Away from Self
 My Track Oakland Raceway V2     Our Club  HMBRC     

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Interesting about group c cars , have always thought it would make a good proxy series similar to the Group 5 Dave runs over there as everyone seems to have at least one of these cars, odd about Thunderslot as i,ve never seen a magnet in one , people i know just weight them round about the same as any other slot sp/gt car.

But there are those who don't weight at all and wonder why the nose lifts and deslots as the car runs in and get's faster and faster , chuckle, have one such car here a friend bought and had that trouble so i,m adding a bit of weight to cure the handling problem , mind you the latest Thunderslot motor does seem faster than the original one's testing it this morning.

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Thanks for your comments about Group C. Class is very popular here as SlotsNZ/Mark Burgess the local retailer, has put a lot of work into class for last 10 years or so including a much loved National event. I probably have at least half a dozen or more cars as does half of NZ.

I was under the impression that it was pretty popular around the globe. So far I have only had comments from the UK and Aussie. The only comments have been about the addition of varying amounts of weight which surprises me as they are such a good running car with N22 tyres. I know my brother (a very competitive racer) sometimes pops front out if he gets too keen at starts but usually no problem. They are a beautifully balanced car out of box except for the demo tyres provided.

I did ask for this thread to be closed but it is still alive. Look forward to the next proxy. I have just started my Tasman Cup car.

Regards Chas Le Breton

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5 hours ago, charlesx said:

Thanks for your comments about Group C. Class is very popular here as SlotsNZ/Mark Burgess the local retailer, has put a lot of work into class for last 10 years or so including a much loved National event. I probably have at least half a dozen or more cars as does half of NZ.

I was under the impression that it was pretty popular around the globe. So far I have only had comments from the UK and Aussie. The only comments have been about the addition of varying amounts of weight which surprises me as they are such a good running car with N22 tyres. I know my brother (a very competitive racer) sometimes pops front out if he gets too keen at starts but usually no problem. They are a beautifully balanced car out of box except for the demo tyres provided.

I did ask for this thread to be closed but it is still alive. Look forward to the next proxy. I have just started my Tasman Cup car.

Regards Chas Le Breton

I raced with Gazza and some of us used more weight than others depending one engines we ran and skill level in setup. Group C was one of our favourite classes at the time  

Joe Zammut is a master tuner and racer with a fitting background and a lathe in his garage. He usually ran light cars with standard Slot.it motors when I was racing as his cars were so well balanced. He was hard to beat so I tried high torque long can motors with cars set up to launch out of corners and drive them straight. Joe was a slider so hard to pass through curves. 

I haven’t raced for years but will have a go again when I can hook up with a local group where I live now. I have a lot of Group C cars and look forward to getting them out again. 

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On 2/9/2021 at 6:50 PM, gazza said:

These are the rules we were using for many years, nothing much has changed, keeps everything even and close ........

1. Slot.it Group C

 

Body

Standard no modifications.

Must have wing if it comes with one.

Wheels must not protrude outside the body when viewed from above.

 

Chassis

Standard chassis as came with car. May have flashing cleaned off to allow body tilt.

No other mods to chassis.

Motor mount can be replaced. Eg Inline to sidewinder or Angle winder.

Slot.it Magnetic suspension may be used.

 

Wheels

Slot.it wheels only.

Can upsize rears to give scale look. 15mm for 17mm.

Wheel inserts must be installed.

 

Tyres

Slot It Tyres Only

 

Motor

Any Slot.it motor can be used.

V12 / 2, V12 / 3, Boxer or Boxer 2.

Weight may be added.

 

Gearing

Free Gearing ratio's, Slot.it only.

 

Cars

Porsche 956 and 962

Sauber Mercedes

Jaguar XJ9 R

Lancia LC2

Mazda 787

Toyota

 

........ basically all Slot-it 

Retaining the out of the box inline orange can motor and 9:28 ratio gearing is much closer racing in our group's experience, and keeps cost down

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Thanks very much Vinno and Caddo. Our class for many years has been basically standard except for Slot-it N22 tyres since we ditched silicones. F22's were allowed at one time but not now. See they have been replaced with G25 and talk is N22 is one way out. Interesting you both allowed any kind of pod and Slot-it motor. Ours motors have remained standard throughout and suspension is not allowed but is in some other classes. I have only raced Group C in WA but at one track near Brisbane they appeared to be virtually unheard of or perhaps it was just the N22 tyres. Think they might be racing them now. I know I took my old Schlesser Porsche over the dish and they were most impressed.

Good to compare notes. thanks for your input. Still hoping to get some more input from UK, Europe, USA, Canada although I am sure they are raced many other places.

Regards Chas Le Breton (charlesx)

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Thanks everybody for your contributions. I have received no less than 17 detailed messages - most positive and very interesting. There is a clear trend of adding weight in many cases which surprised me. Also different tyre, motor and motor mount combinations. In some cases tyres could not be glued and in one there was even a minimum body weight (18gms). Most raced non-magnet.

Do not think I have ever weighed mine but they have certainly got lighter. As they cannot be changed has never been a consideration. Must weigh some. Generally most stuck very close to standard exempt as mentioned and slight body easing for movement as intended. Some people commented the advent of weight was largely because of bodies getting lighter but others stated too much weight slowed them down too much. Interesting though in my opinion still not allowed locally (interpretation uncertainty on my part) but a slottie mate in Wellington who has been using weight said the same thing.

From my point of view no car should have weight added until you have it going smoothly and driveable. It disappoints me that some people are adding as matter of course before even trying. When everybody else does it whether necessary or not is hard not to follow suit or even a matter of survival. In NZ now though we have some classes with minimum weight so there is not much option.

Regards Chas Le Breton (charlesx)

 

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3 hours ago, charlesx said:

 

From my point of view no car should have weight added until you have it going smoothly and driveable. It disappoints me that some people are adding as matter of course before even trying. When everybody else does it whether necessary or not is hard not to follow suit or even a matter of survival. In NZ now though we have some classes with minimum weight so there is not much option.

Regards Chas Le Breton (charlesx)

 

If you are disappointed that people are "adding as matter of course before even trying.
- Well bigger mug them, as they won't get the best out of a car. But I think you would be hard pressed to find many people who actually do that.

The plastic chassis-ed RTR cars most of us drive, are very light - most are just over or under 60 grams - 2 oz. The reality is that the handling and driving predictability at speed on wood tracks is enhanced by lowering the COG and increasing the total rolling weight. Why that should be an issue for you is beyond me.

Getting a car tuned in all aspects, and as smooth as possible before adding weight to optimise performance, has been a basic tuning principle as long as I can remember Charles.
I think I first (re)published a tuning article from a leading USA builder who had won a number of proxy series with the principles of tuning, including the use of weight, with discussion about using "high weight" above the motor in about 1998. 

As I said earlier, any comparisons to European racing are fraught because 90% plus of it is on plastic tracks, where the motor magnets may provide magnetic down-force of 20-30 grams in many instances.
The very broad use of Boxer/Angle-winder setups in cars OOTB is to provide that down-force, and with the longer can magnets and the angle-winder configuration, keep motor magnet over the rails when the car is turning in corners. (S-can inline and side-winder lose much of it in sharper corners)
That is why most GT and LMP cars come in Angle-winder as standard configuration, and there are so many aftermarket motor opens with particular can opening specification.

A lot of competitions specify the maximum down-force which is legal for the class or race for that very reason. They will build the car lighter by using lexan interiors, hollow axles, magnesium wheels which are drilled, just so that the xx gms down-force which is legal, represents a higher ratio in proportion to the car weight, and minimises overall inertia.
The absence of that "black art"  in wood track racing is the main reason we sell so few lightened axles, wheels and almost no lexan interiors in NZ and Australia for the hobby quality cars.
 


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One thing I'd be interested to know - has anyone been able to get a Porsche 956 or 962 competitive with the Nissan and Lancia Group C's on timber? 

Our regs are original body, chassis, motor and gearing, weight can be added. Tyres can be changed to any rubber, N22's the benchmark.

Cheers Caddo

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Hi Caddo.

I can only speak for the cars I have (SlotsNZ would have a better idea than me) but most are competitive with a decent set of tyres. I have a 10 year old Schlesser Porsche 956 KH still with original everything  and near worn out N22 tyres it has had for the last 5-6 years. I like it as it is so sure footed and therefore easy for an old fella like me to drive. I agree some of the lighter more recent models can be a bit flighty but well set up are very fast. Mind you I am far from top rung as a driver but I can have my day.

Regards Chas Le Breton (charlesx).

 

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2 hours ago, Caddo said:

One thing I'd be interested to know - has anyone been able to get a Porsche 956 or 962 competitive with the Nissan and Lancia Group C's on timber? 

Our regs are original body, chassis, motor and gearing, weight can be added. Tyres can be changed to any rubber, N22's the benchmark.

Cheers Caddo

Funnily enough Caddo, your rules are pretty much the same as our local club rules and the rules for the Nationals in NZ. But N22 are the only tyre we use.

- The idea behind Group C rules, has always to keep the cost down for the class. It is about the first car we recommend all new members buy, and by teaching them basic tuning principles with these well mannered cars, we set them on the road to being capable of tuning cars themselves. The wide range of models and liveries over the past 15 years is a plus as well.

As Chas has said, these cars go pretty well right from the box. As well as free braid choice, we DO allow "free spacers" so it is pretty normal for the axles to have spacers between pod and wheels, so the crown can be set with the motor shaft not touching the sides of the contrate. Some guys also put a spacer between the underside of the pod legs, and the upper side of the chassis - both as cushioning, and to raise the back end 0.5m - 1.0mm, which effectively lowers the ride height by that amount.
Those things done, I don't see any advantage in any body of the past 5 years say, and another. The oldest Porsches have heavier bodies, (as per the one Chas mentioned) so are at a small disadvantage, and the original LC2 Lancia was never as quick as anything else.

The fastest Group C in our club last week was a Coca Cola Porsche which is an older model, followed by my Nissan R89c that I built for the 2018 Nationals, and have barely touched since, which has a small track width disadvantage to almost every other model, but is otherwise well balanced.
I suspect that the later Lancia LC2/85 is pretty quick given the driver who was mid pack last week. My Toyota 86C - is my 2nd quickest car. 
I don't see it as having any advantage over the assorted Porsches, and am looking lustfully at a Gunston Porsche on the shelf, as possibly my next build/tune.


Walks upright Unaided  *  Ties Own Shoelaces  *  Can Mispronounce Own Name In Five Languages  *  Mostly Aims Rattle Cans Away from Self
 My Track Oakland Raceway V2     Our Club  HMBRC     

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Thanks for your further comments Mark but not one of the feedback items I have is from Europe. At least half clearly stated they raced non-magnet on wood while none mentioned racing on plastic. In standard format there is little difference between wood and plastic anyhow except for one brand which you will be well aware of.

I acknowledge your time in Europe with their plastic tracks but that is beyond my experience and irrelevant from my point of view. I have not bought a new Slot-it Group C for sometime but several of our newer members have much later models. I am tempted to buy the new Toyota 86? though and was quick impressed with them at Wellington recently. As you will recall I raced my Toyota 88C which I preferred over Sauber. Both have been raced at Nats previously. I left my Porsche behind but it might have gone better. That's life. Regards Chas Le Breton

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Speaking from up North chuckle, as regards weight on plastic track, i have never used magnets and never will, as regards weight all my cars have added weight as nearly all are plastic chassis , exception to this are my Tasman entries which are metal Beardog chassis, so heavy enough.

Adding weight is esential as i go up in motor power , even with my IPS proxy entries they all carry weight and they are 14k powered motors , it,s not the amount or the quantity, it,s where you put it , i have found up fronr as near to the guide and front axle keeps my front stable and able to push the car into corners, also being a inline class some weight in the centre is useful, i don't put weight in the sides of the chassis in this particular class.

Group 5 where we can use more powerful motors say like the NSR 25 or the Pirana 25k in sidewinder form the front weight is in the same place but slightly heavier that's to combat nose lift with a light chassis powerful motor combination, with sidewinder i always weight the pod as well , slightly weight the outer edges of the chassis, gives the car a more stable hug ground feeling.

As regards group c cars i have 3 two Porsche 962,s Imsa and a Toyota , all are inline and all are set up as above , all cars are a great drive very stable, all cars are running the slot it 23 so have  a fair turn of speed and a well set up Porsche on plastic track is a very good weapon indeed.

Turning to wood the only tracks i race on which are wood are those in NZ and Oz and my cars are set up on plastic as that is all i have , over the years i have learned what to do and not what to do on wood , always taken advice and i have found my set up for plastic is not much differant to set up on wood now , and i,m fairly succesful in all the proxies i do down under, may not have a winning car but fairly competative and that is what i aim for.

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On 2/12/2021 at 6:36 AM, charlesx said:

"at one track near Brisbane they appeared to be virtually unheard of or perhaps it was just the N22 tyres. Think they might be racing them now. I know I took my old Schlesser Porsche over the dish and they were most impressed."

We all own them but we don't race them that often.  We aren't really into racing slot.it cars too many variables with pod setup and motors and magnets. We have raced them on a few tracks but they have low appeal in our group. As a group we run most things fairly stock - if you change wheels or gears they have to be same as what came off etc we don't run N22 tyres - we run MJK /urethanes or stock rubber. One chap put some slot.it rubber tyres on a car for one class and the grip was pretty impressive - so we told him he couldn't race with them next time - cheaper than us all going out and buy the tyres -  LOL

 

Edited by dangermouse

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Well Chas,

Rather than verifying that there are 'standard' Group C rules around the world I'm probably going to add more variables to the discussion.

I race with two clubs in Tasmania, one in the south of the state and the other in the north, the area where I live. In broad terms it could be said that the Tassie tracks are tight, twisty layouts and not like (many of?) the super-smooth tracks in NZ.

In the south of the state any motor configuration is permitted (SS, AW or Inline), tyres  can only be rubber or urethane, motors are the Slot.It orange endbell 23K. From my experience most of the locals are probably weighting their cars up to around 120 gm. That's what works for them and I'm not going to deliberately put myself at a disadvantage after traveling 200 km to the tracks.

The Launceston club (northern Tas) only allows inline set-ups when racing Group C as its feature series BUT is does allow the use of sponge tyres. This is possibly because the club had its origins in another northern club where ONLY sponge tyres are used - made from industrial rubber EPDM (?) by the track-owner.

However, I do take your point about not giving up without trying. In 7 or 8 years of competing with the southern club I have only been on the podium twice, and both times using a Flyslot Williams F1 with the complex 'angled-inline' gears set-up. Reputedly no-one can get this car set up successfully yet I was able to achieve two 3rd place finishes in the one series.

Den

 

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We pretty much run the Slot.it Group C's as box standard at WASCRG, 10 volts on a Ferradore timber track.

With the only rule being you must use MJK's as in every class run at WASCRG.

You are allowed to add weight if you like but I've never found the need to with my Porsche 962 Budweiser car.

I have added M2 6mm grub screws for the front axle height adjustment but everything else is box standard bar the usual tuning tweaks.

I think at WASCRG at the moment a Nissan is the quickest car but it all depends on the night.

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4 hours ago, kalbfellp said:

I am surprised that no one has mentioned what voltage you are running on.

Many if the US clubs running on 10 volts with unweighted Slot Its.

As Dennis mentioned the track layout and surface also is a big consideration.

 

Forgot to mention, we set a minimum weight of 85 grams, to keep the older, heavier cars competitive. Running 11.5V on smooth timber, satin and gloss surfaces. 

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Hi Caddo and Phil. One of my correspondents did mention running at 10 volts as has Mattcrackers now. See above post. I have run at Syd's track in Perth where Mattcrackers also runs and can confirm they now use 10 volts. Used to be 12 volts but they found 10 gave more reliable and just as competitive racing.

We generally run at 12 volts in NZ but some tracks to use higher voltages.

Regards Chas Le Breton

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