ff050 sidewinder pod for Slot.it chassis mount

[SlotsNZ]

Some of you may have seen the pods Bingo from HBMRC club has been developing recently. 
This is his party, but as he hasn't yet begun a dedicated thread, I will get it started.

This is the idea. Having driven ff050 sidewinders in the MR Slotcar McLaren  F1 GTR when they came out, I was impressed with the tractability of a low powered, low profile motor in my favourite Sidewinder config. 
I badgered Paul until he got this underway, and has since presented me with a series of prototypes based on the CAD below
He has printed these in PLA +
They are very stiff, Paul has had to do a couple of tricks to reduce the risk of splitting along the printed layer lines.
The pod he delivered tonight which I used has had a good try out. 

Tonight he dropped by a pair of pods fitted with a couple of motors. 
These are the two top pods pictured below. The bottom pod has a tiny ff030 motor fitted.

One version of the ff050 pod takes 5.5mm pinion with 17.5mm spur or a 5mm pinion with 18mm spur, the other is for a 5.5mm pinion with 18mm spur.
Small cars often have small OD wheels and the use of a 17.5mm spur just provides a little more ability to get track clearance with low profile wheel/tyre combos.

Use with single inside flanged ball race, oilite or brass bush to retain maximum space for wheels.
I actually fitted this one with a couple of nylon single sided bushes I had lying around from an unkown source. A decent, wide, brass bush would give more surface area for gluing in and avoid what I spilled with thin CYA.... ooops.
The lower profile of the ff030 and ff050 enables these to fit under tray interiors that cannot accommodate a higher standard FC130 motor
Working around the feeding trough call, I fitted the 5.5mm brass pinioned pod +18mm spur into a fairly well worked Sideways Capri, that had been running a standard Flat-6 angle-winder pod. I swapped over the same wheels/tyres at the bask
I initially tried it 9:36, but it was just too low, so I switch to 9:32, and that felt a lot better.

At the moment, the fiddle of getting the motor in place, with the power connection tags sticking out the end, means I had to hot glue it in place.
I actually ran about 20 laps before I realised it was just sitting in place,and the direction of pinion turn, was all that was stopping it popping out....

This test bed car was running 5.5s in standard config.
I quickly matched that with the ff050 motor which is 24.5k  95 g/cm torque, = 5.9 watts, versus the Flat-6 yellow which is 20,500 rpm  200 g/cm = 10.25 watts

Those who regularly use low powered cars will know that a car which is tractable - easy to drive, will often match a much higher powered car with is a bit twitchy. 
But I got the Capri into the high 5.3s after a bit of body screw tweaking. I haven't touched the weight that was used to balance the original setup. 
I was able to do fairly consistent 5.4s and 5.5s. 
I have a few more adjustments for Paul to copy, which I created with a dremel.... Ahem...
This pod is going to be quite useful.
He is also working on inline versions for the ff050 and ff030, to suit very small cars.

[Peter Gunn]

Now that is interesting especially for the ff motor , when can we buy them ?

[big den]

G'day Mark.

I've been following Paul's work with interest and will be in the market for a variety of pods when they are in production.

The quote below came from a Forum member in New South Wales early in 2019 when  I was actively chasing the (now defunct) Devis 3D pods from the USA and referred in particular to the end-bell-drive  (EBD) sidewinder pods for S-Can motors ... like the one that I believe you've loaned to Paul to use as a sample.

"I race with 12 or so blokes that may be interested in converting Scaley chassis pigs, into 3d podded rockets."

The availability of an EBD pod designed to accept snap-in bearings means that most of the Scalextric running gear can be used.

For some time I've been running a Fly Viper fitted with a Shapeways chassis and Devis inline pod that takes the slimline FF050 motor. It goes OK.

The FF050 is now being used in a lot of Scalextric cars as well the recently-arrived Policar classic F1 series. As a driver of Fly F1s trying to keep up with the Policars I can tell you that those slimline motors aren't slouches.

Best of all, some of the FF050 slimline motors are often available for less than $10 which means that you can build up a car for fun or competition at a bargain basement price. Those Forum members who have competed in Tasman Cup Proxy races would be better qualified to comment on the performance of the FF050 motors.

Den

 

[Terry]

I'm really keen to see a in line version of this pod, 

 

I have too many older Scaley F1 cars here which are in need of this very thing.

 

I'll be keeping an eye out for any further developments

 

Terry

[Brumos RSR]

I’m in on a the sidewinder version 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Brumos RSR

[Bingo]

Thanks Mark. Looks like I might be busy. 

[SlotsNZ]

Hah,  got him here, and he didn't reply to a couple of things.
Den - he is already doing an endbell drive sidewinder for FC130,  - someone else in club had stuck up a hand for that.
Terry - he has also done ff050 inline - not sure about ff030 as yet, but he tells me that is an easy adjustment. Just not sure whether they are at final versions.
I want the online versions for tiny cars too. 

Guys - I'll try and grab other samples at Club Thursday night, and throw some pics up here of the full basket.
Paul can come back to you about availability and price, I'm just the nuisance that keeps putting ideas in his head and poking him with a stick

 

[Kevan]

Ya can't go wrong with a SW.

[Wobble]

Nice and neat looking pods there. It would also be great to see someone doing pods for FK-130's (inline or sidewinder). FK130's casings are actually slightly shorter than FF motors although the contacts protrude slightly more but almost exactly the same length including contacts as a FF-050. I know they're not widely used but I've got quite a few that could do with a home.

[Bingo]

4 hours ago, Wobble said:

Nice and neat looking pods there. It would also be great to see someone doing pods for FK-130's (inline or sidewinder). FK130's casings are actually slightly shorter than FF motors although the contacts protrude slightly more but almost exactly the same length including contacts as a FF-050. I know they're not widely used but I've got quite a few that could do with a home.

I could do them if I had a sample to make the drawing from

[Bingo]

On 9/14/2020 at 8:09 PM, Peter Gunn said:

Now that is interesting especially for the ff motor , when can we buy them ?

Once Mark is happy i can print to order; sounds like they are working for him.

[Wobble]

4 hours ago, Bingo said:

I could do them if I had a sample to make the drawing from

Cheers Bingo ... just thinking about it, the FK-130 could just go in an inline pod made for long can (FK-180) motors, like the earlier Slot.it Boxer pods, as long as there are mount holes in the same place, as the dimensions other than the length are the same. I'd be a starter for some of these then there are options for 2 motor types.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Wobble

[Chrisguyw]

slotcrazy, on 15 Sept 2020 - 7:54 PM, said:

 

 

 

- I just ran a test Policar ff-050 sidewinder in a Sideways Capri - only about half the power (wattage) of the flat-6 angle-winder, and easily 0.1 a lap faster on my 65 foot track - and so forgiving to drive.

 

Chris - I am thinking we will mate those ff pods with Professor Motor 3/32 / 3 1/16th Oilites, as a cheap single flange bushing option.

Any thoughts on that idea? 

 

 

Hi Mark, Excellent idea, you will not be disappointed !!

 

 I have used FF050 motors in both scratchbuilt and plastic car chassis for quite some time, in inline, sidewinder, and anglewinder configurations. Although they  obviously do not have the pure grunt of the FC130 or FK180 motors, their lighter weight, certainly reduces the "polar moment of inertia", and therefore improves the handling and the transitional response. While on longer more open tracks. the grunt of the 130/180's is tough to beat, on shorter twistier club tracks the FF050 powered cars more than hold their own. (just gear them properly) 

The Policar FF050, is certainly the pick of the litter among the 050's, and, I have used this motor in a couple of recent proxies with very good success.

 

A commercial grade oilite (3/32 x 3/16) offers more precision, and is as free running as any bushing offered by any of the typical plastic car offerings............the Prof. Mtr. oilites fall into this category, and, I use single flanged oilites in all my car/pods.

 

The single flanged bushing also allows (with a simple pod modification) for the option of narrowing the rear end, for those cars with slim rear ends.

 

Cut the "fingers" that hold the spherical bushings, ream the holes to 3/16 and align/glue the oilites.

 

The picture below is an example on an inline...........I needed a very narrow rear end (Austin Healy Sprite), so the flanges were installed inboard..........saved a few precious mm per side.

 

 

 

A few examples of the FF050 in various chassis.

 

This car was built for the SCCA proxy 2/3 years back...........you could use an 18K FC130, or, a Policar 050,............the top 3 cars all used the 050.

This has oilites, flanges mounted inboard.

 

 

This 050 is mounted in a MRSlotcar sidewinder pod............extremely well balanced !!,.........it has since been replaced with a Policar 050

This 050 sidewinder pod is designed to use a 4.5mm pinion, and a 15.5mm spur

 

 

 

This is a Policar in a 3D anglewinder pod from LEB Hobbies. The pod did need a fair bit of work, but this car (built for this years SCCA proxy....050 or 18K FC130) appeared to be the class of the field, until it was postponed after just a few rounds due to Covid.

 

This pod also had the protruding bushing "feelers" removed, and single flanged oilites installed........I needed the extra space, and the oilites just offer more precision.

 

 

And an 050 in a scratchbuilt sidewinder,.........again, the motor has since been replaced by a Policar.......one of my best all round cars for club type tracks.

 

 

This was posted on another Forum, and Mark asked that I post it here.

 

Cheers

Chris Walker

Edited September 16, 2020 by Chrisguyw

[Chrisguyw]

A couple of comments on your pod(s) so far Bingo........hope you do not mind !!......they do look good !!

In a previous post, Mark mentioned that for cars with smaller od. wheels/tires, a 17/5 mm spur gives a tad more track clearance for a given rear tyre dia., which is certainly a bonus.........give the space between the rear axle and motor can, you could consider doing a pod with less gap,....one which would utilize a 16.5mm spur (MRSlotcar), coupled with a 5.5mm pinion.

The smaller spur does offer some benefits.........

1/ It allows even smaller rear dia. rear tyres to be used, still with reasonable track clearance. 

2/ For long proxy events, or for those that run their tyres for ages, it allows more wear to occur without track damage

3/ It sits level with the bottom of the pod face, which helps protect the spur in an "off"

4/ Most importantly, for a given rear tyre dia, it allows the use of a smaller dia, wheel, coupled with a taller tyre sidewall, which offers more tyre compression, aiding grip.

All the above points must obviously be measured against any of your club rules !!

For the above reasons, I use only 15.5 or 16.5mm spurs in all my race cars.

 

Cheers

Chris Walker

 

 

 

[Bingo]

On 9/16/2020 at 4:29 PM, Wobble said:

Cheers Bingo ... just thinking about it, the FK-130 could just go in an inline pod made for long can (FK-180) motors, like the earlier Slot.it Boxer pods, as long as there are mount holes in the same place, as the dimensions other than the length are the same. I'd be a starter for some of these then there are options for 2 motor types.

Just bought 1 of those motors so I can model it

[Wobble]

1 hour ago, Bingo said:

Just bought 1 of those motors so I can model it

You make them Bingo and I'll take 4-5 off your hands. Can't seem to find the early Slot.it Boxer pods anymore which is completely understandable.

[Bingo]

The pods are ready if anyone is interested at NZ$9 plus postage. 
These are the side winder pods for the FF-50 and 30 Motors. 
There are 2 options in terms of motor to axle centre distances  

1. Suits a 36T gear and 8T pinion

2. Suits a 36T gear and 9T pinion

If you have another gear/pinion combination I can accommodate that if you contact me. Additional measurement will need to be provided

The axle holes are drilled to suit bushes or bearings......these are not supplied. 
 

You can contact me on baldkopje@gmail.com

Thanks for your interest  

 

[big den]

Great news Paul.

I'll be racing with the Launceston group tomorrow so I'll let them know of your progress and see who's interested, and then I'll contact you.

As indicated in Chris Walker's post dated September 17 it's not always the number of teeth on the spur gear that is important, but rather the diameter of the spur gear.

Using an 050 FF slimline motor means that the distance between the centre-lines of the motor shaft and the rear axle can be reduced, and therefore allows the use of a smaller diameter spur gear while maintaining a decent gear mesh.

Using a smaller diameter spur gear (15.5 or 16.5 mm) provides the car-builder with an opportunity to use smaller wheels and tyres, leading to all the benefits mentioned by Chis while  making it easier to ensure that the tyres don't rub against the body.

Den

 

[Chrisguyw]

16 hours ago, Bingo said:

There are 2 options in terms of motor to axle centre distances  

1. Suits a 36T gear and 8T pinion

2. Suits a 36T gear and 9T pinion

 

Hi Paul, Assuming you are using the typical (.5 module) pinions/spurs from Slot-it/NSR/Tslot, etc,. and not pure pitch gears, I do not understand why you would need varying motor shaft/axle clearance between an 8T and 9T pinion..............both pinions, (given your stated tooth count) should be 5.5mm in diameter, and the spurs 18mm. ??

Cheers

Chris Walker

 

PS would love to see a pic. of the finished pod.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Chrisguyw

[SlotsNZ]

Yep, to clarify for Paul, the 9 tooth pinion is a 5.5mm coupled with an 18mm spur - identical axle to axle distances to Slot.it pods.

The 8 tooth pinion is a 5mm pinion I gave to Paul, to go with an 18mm spur, or it could be a 5.5mm pinion with a 17.5mm spur
- In other words the axle to axle distance is 0.5mm less that the Slot.it distancing, just to buy the user a tiny reduction in spur diameter so you can use lower profile tyre combos.

- Must admit, I have some "17mm Slot.it spurs"  in my war chest- they began life as GS1835, spurs, but have been fairly heavily "tipped" so I could use them on cars with low profile wheel/tyre setups. The stuff engineers nightmares are made of.

This is the pod Paul gave me Thursday at club.
Paul has lowered the profile to close to the motor upper surface, and added some bracing across the front of it to reduce the likelyhood of splitting
You still need to fix the motor in yourself
Single flange bushes or oilites will need to have the flange on the outside due to the closeness of the axle to the motor case

 

[Chrisguyw]

52 minutes ago, SlotsNZ said:

Yep, to clarify for Paul, the 9 tooth pinion is a 5.5mm coupled with an 18mm spur - identical axle to axle distances to Slot.it pods.

The 8 tooth pinion is a 5mm pinion I gave to Paul, to go with an 18mm spur, or it could be a 5.5mm pinion with a 17.5mm spur
- In other words the axle to axle distance is 0.5mm less that the Slot.it distancing, just to buy the user a tiny reduction in spur diameter so you can use lower profile tyre combos.

- Must admit, I have some "17mm Slot.it spurs"  in my war chest- they began life as GS1835, spurs, but have been fairly heavily "tipped" so I could use them on cars with low profile wheel/tyre setups. The stuff engineers nightmares are made of.

This is the pod Paul gave me Thursday at club.
Paul has lowered the profile to close to the motor upper surface, and added some bracing across the front of it to reduce the likelyhood of splitting
You still need to fix the motor in yourself
Single flange bushes or oilites will need to have the flange on the outside due to the closeness of the axle to the motor case

 

Hi Mark, As 5mm pinions are far from common, and as most folks will not turn down 18mm spurs to 17.5, (not really recommended) , it would seem that the pod with the reduced spacing will be considerably less useful (and somewhat more confusing) for most folks.The pod with the 5.5mm pinion/18mm spur spacing will allow (with good mesh) 5.5mm pinions of 8/9/10T and 18mm Spurs with between 31 to 36T. This would seem to be the simple route as both 5.5mm pinions and 18mm spurs are basically universally available, and understood by most.

As an option to the standard spacing (5.5mm/18mm) Motor/axle spacing to accommodate a 5.5mm pinion and a 16.5mm spur, would be, to my mind, a much better second option, but, I do appreciate your comments on your desire to stock 16.5mm spurs 

Cheers

Chris Walker

[Bingo]

Apologies guys I am reasonably new to slot cars so some of my terminology i.e gear sizes is not exactly correct. I appretiate the comments & the help with it all lol. Huge learning curve for me. I am drawing stuff on request & not always fully understanding what I am doing lol.

Here are two pictures of the finished article. As SlotNZ pointed out the shaft centres are different by 0.5mm

 

 

 

[Wobble]

28 minutes ago, Bingo said:

Apologies guys I am reasonably new to slot cars so some of my terminology i.e gear sizes is not exactly correct. I appretiate the comments & the help with it all lol. Huge learning curve for me. I am drawing stuff on request & not always fully understanding what I am doing lol.

For being "reasonably new to slot cars" you're doing great. .....  You're streets ahead in terms of IT and 3DP than I am and ever hope to be.

[SlotsNZ]

3 hours ago, Chrisguyw said:

As an option to the standard spacing (5.5mm/18mm) Motor/axle spacing to accommodate a 5.5mm pinion and a 16.5mm spur, would be, to my mind, a much better second option, but, I do appreciate your comments on your desire to stock 16.5mm spurs 

Cheers

Chris Walker

Hi Chris,

I think you are clearly right in that the 5.5mm +18mm combo will be more popular
- Actually, firstly - My error in my previous post, as this is already 1mm closer axle pairing than a  Slot.it pod - which would use a 6.5mm +18mm. DUH
[ Clearly too much blood in my coffee-stream when I typed that early this morning ]

The 17.5mm spur is readily available in NZ (and I imagine Australia), as this is the standard for ScaleAuto and NSR, whereas - in our discussion - the only 16.5mm spur was MR SlotCars which I won't stock. I doubt anyone will carry a full range of MR Slotcar spares in Oz either.
5mm nylon pinions are also reasonably available on the Bay of E or after-market sellers.

But the kicker that rules out going even closer - ie a 5.5mm pinion with a 16.5mm spur, is two fold
- firstly the axle and bushes move 1mm closer to the motor shaft, and you just run out of "meat" in which to mount the bushes or oilites.
- See Picture below.  That is the unflanged inside of the bush poking through at top, and there isn't a lot of plastic between the left hand edge of the hole,
and the slot where the motor wire tags slide down.

There just isn't another mm to play with to move the axle another mm closer.
IF, and only IF the 16.5mm spurs were available - with as many teeth as possible for workable ratios, and IF 6.5mm pinions for a 1.5mm shaft, then we would have the luxury of using this existing 5mm +18mm closer shaft pair Paul has worked up.

It may just be that as you say Chris, the 5.5mm +18mm [or 5mm with 17.5mm spur] becomes the main sidewinder pod. 

Yeah - Wobble, he's a pretty quick learner, and very patient with us engineering-challenged types.

[Chrisguyw]

Hi Mark, I understand and appreciate your concerns/issues with MRSlotcar, and, I am only forwarding this post from a "what is possible" design perspective.

The standard MRSlotcar FF050 sidewinder pod utilizes a 5.5mm pinion, with a 15.5mm Spur, and has plenty of motor/axle clearance, as well as ample room (clearance and pod upright durability) for standard double flanged snap in bushings.

For higher RPM FF050 motors (that favour a higher numeric gear ratio), I do regularly use a 4.5mm pinion, with a 16.5mm Spur, again, with no clearance issues.

This is a pic. of a 30K Ff050 installed into the MRSlotcar pod, using a 4.5mm pinion, and a 16.5mm Spur.........plenty of clearance. I did slightly reduce the OD of the busing flanges, but there is sufficient clearance even if this was not done.

 

The pod Paul has designed is just fine, (it looks good) , and , will no doubt work well, but, if a little more bushing flange clearance is needed, he could reduce the width of the inside of the rear upright support tabs he has designed into this pod, and add this "meat"to the outside of the rear uprights. (You will notice in the above pic. that the inside edges of the bushing flanges are just outside the can edges)

Again, I am in no way trying to interfere/denegrate......just trying to provide some info on what can be done to engineer around a "fit" issue.

Cheers

Chris Walker

PS As I mentioned in a previous post, in a recent proxy that allowed either a stock Scaley FC130, or, a Scaley FF050, the top 3 cars were all 050 powered. (all tracks were typical twisty wood club tracks)