Mission Statement - Consistency Of Rules

[axman]

Hi all,

I was trawling thru some of the American hard body sites and came across this raceways mission statement..

Pretty good really. I am a firm believer in keeping consistent rule's. A lot of racers due to work and family commitments often have to take a break from slot cars only to lose them when they eventually come back and find their cars are no longer legal.

 

James at Hornsby Slotcars, who owns the longest continuously running raceway in Australia is a big believer in not changing rules. What more proof do you need than a raceway still going after 50 years in the same location!

.

 

Extract from Mid American Hard Body Stock Car Series Rules

Updated April 2017

​

Our mission: To promote a simple and consistent scale racing environment that is supported by local racers, local manufactures, and local raceways. The intent is not to make drastic rule or operations changes from season to season. Rules will be updated at the end of each season as needed. Any new rule proposals or parts submittals must be submitted in written form to the series board of directors for review a minimum of two months before the start of a new series.

 

Racers are separated into heat races based upon skill level at monthly series races. Points are awarded by overall laps. 1st/20pts, 2nd/18, 3rd/16, 4th/15, 5th/14, 6th/13, 7th/12, 8th/10. 9th place and below get 9 points.

 

Regular series races will be 2 minute heats with 2 minute intermissions. Repairs can be made under green flag or during intermission. Championship races may be 3 minute heats.

 

Race participants must also marshall in order to be awarded points in series racing. Failure to marshall or provide a substitute may result in a forfeit of points for that day.

 

All rules listed here are subject to the spirit of intent. The tech director has the final say, but may address issues with other board members when an issue comes up. In addition to tech at the moment of sign in before a race, post tech will be performed at Series races. Top finisher of each main, and top 3 overall will go through body off tech.

​

​

Edited July 7, 2017 by axman

[Springbok Racer]

Kim,

 

This is also true when you look at our own Aussie rulesets for the most successful Scale Model Car classes. The following jumps to mind immediately; Plafit Historic LM and 70's Sportscars, Scaleauto, OAPR LMP's and Slotworx V8's.

 

When we all resist change for the sake of change - classes are stable and consistent. Which in turn give all of us the motivation to enter organised events.

 

Cheers,

 

Jan

[steve38]

Kim,

 

This is also true when you look at our own Aussie rulesets for the most successful Scale Model Car classes. The following jumps to mind immediately; Plafit Historic LM and 70's Sportscars, Scaleauto, OAPR LMP's and Slotworx V8's.

 

When we all resist change for the sake of change - classes are stable and consistent. Which in turn give all of us the motivation to enter organised events.

 

Cheers,

 

Jan

 

Has Mini Z become a casualty?

[Arkin]

I disagree with keeping consistent rule's in a class especially in model car racing compared to Lexan Flexi cars that haven't changed for decades

Scale model car racing is evolving i e

1-New body types become available

2- Chassis become obsolete like plafit 1300 and scaleauto 8000

3-Chassis evolve like plafit 1900 or scaleauto 8003

i mean the new Mini Z rules have created some unknowns and it will be great to see a range of new bodys on the track not just mclarens

and rules may require a tweek or update to keep the class even or even new rules created with car evolution i see this as exciting

for a racer that is coming back from a break they might have to purchase a little more than tires to get up to speed or maybe check out Retro or vintage type classes

[axman]

Hi Arkin.. I guess thats the difference between your view and mine is at what level of involvement you have.. There are two very different stories here. One is a business plan for a commercial raceway trying to keep its doors open.. the other is for a Slot Car enthusiast that likes spending a lot of time building cars.

 

The mission statement above has been put in place by a commercial raceway operator that is trying to convey to his customers that he has their interests at heart and will not change rules for the sake of flogging new stock.. or moving old that he cant sell. His arse is on the line ( and probably his house) I commend him for what he is trying to do.

 

At a club level you not usually paying rent but like commercial racers many come along just to enjoy the social aspect of racing and are happy to run the same car week after week, often not opening their slot box from one race night to the next.

Enthusiasts like you, get enjoyment from the build, test, and tune and it all about the win. I have raced Slotcars for many years and sorry, but the raceways that have a simple set of rules with minimal change are more likely to keep

the doors open and their customers happy.

 

Oh.. and Arkin regards items , 1, 2, & 3

 

I see no problem with replacing chassis as they become obsolete... We've had a great run with the Plafit 1300 and Scaleauto 8000.

 

I also see no problem with new body releases as long as they are approved in a manner that allows plenty of time for all buy, test and tune ready for the next season.

 

Regards Mini Z,

Well.. i'm one of those open the slot box only when I get to the track kind of guys. ( lazy racer)

Last year I really enjoyed racing Mini Z ( yes a McLaren ) and have a very good one. Now.. to compete at the top level I have to build a whole new car and set it up for some meaningless rule change to encourage us to buy less competitive bodies for their aesthetic value ? C'mon.. you know the same drivers will be winning again and one body will again reign supreme. So why change the rules again on a really great class in the first place?

 

So.. these days I actually prefer the scale lexan classes because the different body styles have little impact on performance, I like the fact you only have to paint up a $12 body for a different season and the chassis pretty much stays the same. In a nutshell, I'll race the classes that change the least.

Edited June 26, 2017 by axman

[Arkin]

Kim you are right

I do enjoy the build test and tune for my National type class cars and my club box sometimes does not get opened until the following week and there are even flexi cars in there

also the mini Z comments are spot on but it will be fun testing some new combos.

[axman]

Let me know how you go Arkin... I'm still contemplating bulking up the McLaren... but double sidepans and another 20 grams of weight on the body I think is a big ask!

 

By the way.. nice track on your avatar

Edited June 26, 2017 by axman

[Arkin]

Thanks

i weighted up my Audi for the MCN but i had some offs going into corners a little to hot

the extra weight in the body really changed the characteristics of the car and i like to run deep into corners and try and out brake my competitors

so i will be building a 150 155 gram car

were as my Mate Chris also ran an Audi but he adapted to the new characteristics and placed 2nd

so i guess it will depend on the way you drive to what car will work for you.

[espsix]

And a McLaren won at MCN's, I TQ'd with a Ford Gt, but tyre rub and bad driving saw me place 3rd, so the new rules for MZ's looks ok to me.

 

But on topic, as a limited budget racer I like rules to be stable.

[Arkin]

i might be wrong here but wasn't the winning car was a McLaren F1 not the MP4

[Benno]

i might be wrong here but wasn't the winning car was a McLaren F1 not the MP4

 

Ironically the car that won wasnt really that quick , it had decent pace but there was no chance in hell i could squeeze much more out of what i had . My Q time vs my best racing lap times were very close to each other .

 

The top guys like Brett and co had incredible car speed ( so much so i would have loved to have driven them just for the raw speed ) ...... And for what it's worth , the car was an MP4 ( which now has some history as it was NSW State Titles winning & also the MCN winning car)

[Benno]

Let me know how you go Arkin... I'm still contemplating bulking up the McLaren... but double sidepans and another 20 grams of weight on the body I think is a big ask!

 

By the way.. nice track on your avatar

 

I ran full brakes ( choke on ) and still had to lift early to pull it up for some of the turns , i did say to Pierre that it was hard to stop , he then said it was due to the extra weight he had to put into the car

 

I would also assume that some additional weight could also play into the hands of the car ??? To be fair i have no idea on how or what to do when building these cars so i may just be talking piffle

[axman]

Guys.. this is good mini Z conversation... and Benno, your stuff is not piffle. This is stuff that racers would like to know for the upcoming APC.

Be good if you could copy and past into the "Show us your Mini Z " topic I tried to revive back in May this year when I found out about the fat McLaren rule change.

 

I would would welcome comments on successful race formula's that have survived and kept racers happy with minimal rule change.

[Benno]

Guys.. this is good mini Z conversation... and Benno, your stuff is not piffle. This is stuff that racers would like to know for the upcoming APC.

Be good if you could copy and past into the "Show us your Mini Z " topic I tried to revive back in May this year when I found out about the fat McLaren rule change.

 

I would would welcome comments on successful race formula's that have survived and kept racers happy with minimal rule change.

 

Umm , im not so sure im the best person to be listening to or asking , i literally bought my first slotcar in October last year , i do not own a MiniZ ( thats about to change as Werner is sorting things out for me ) .... I have no idea what they were like to drive prior to recent events .

 

Im happy to share what i 'felt' driving the car but beyond that im out of my depth

[beastm]

i just wanted to add to this topic.

1. i agree with a mission statement , for a commercial operation is good . BUT any organised slot car group should enforce the rules in a consistent manner. In Melbourne we need to be better at this aspect.

Sometimes the poor commercial owner has to flog the new stock cause the manufacturer puts him in a position where he has no choice. But where new replaces old, lets not get rid of old forever, cause those less fortunate or less inclined to make the effort to change may not be able to upgrade and you don't want them to miss out. they may still enjoy racing the "old" configuration (they may even still win)

 

2. I am hoping that Mr Slot Car can keep enticing new racers to the scene , without a substantial cash outlay to become competitive despite the change in product. With guys, like Jason, Brett, Dimmers, Chris and Greg all being happy to share knowledge and coach guys in set up, its makes it easier to get up to speed quickly

 

3 in relation to aesthetics i admit i am a atheistic type and like to see different grids. Yes the McLaren may have won again, but Audi was second; ford was third and Honda was 4th. The last three all on same laps and 2 laps behind the winner. did this make for close racing i think so.

 

4 i have to begrudgingly admit that i favour the lexan cars on a large scale track as i really don't want to damage my GFK & model kit bodies in a wipe out. i am very much a hard body fan though.

Edited June 28, 2017 by beastm

[axman]

Hi beastm, I think you bring up some good points:

Item 1/ "Lets not get rid of old forever" I have always loved the 1300 Plafit Historic class and agree there should be some classes that recognise this fabulous chassis.

I would love to see this as the true historic class.. run in events as a "B" grade. Possibly a body list specifying pre 1968 sports cars would make great racing. Cars that that got us old guys into slots. Bodies like the Lotus 30 & 40's, Porsche Carrera, Matich, Chapperal, Hussiens, Marcos Mantis, Ford GT40's.. etc. all a bit narrow by todays standards but great for a true historic class.

The superceded Scaleauto chassis should be also be recognised.. possible as a "B" grade car that can still compete at events with the newer chassis release.

2/ New racers should always try to get to a National event.. I know every one of my race mates always are happy to put time into new contestants.

3/ Good to see new bodies on the podium.. lets wait and see what turns up at the APC. If a McLaren wins again it will mean the rule change is a waste of time..

4/ Yep.. GFK to expensive for me. Most Aussies have been bought on a Lexan diet.. I know there are a few grumblings for the new Lexan Gt3 Class with the open chassis ruling but I think it will fly. There are already a lot of very expensive chassis out there for the modern GT class so it makes sense tp me to replace an exploding GFK body with lexan.

Edited June 29, 2017 by axman

[Springbok Racer]

Kim and Mark,

 

I think you guys are onto something here, apart from our mutual motivation for rule preservation. But to be specific for a moment:

 

- The idea of a Plafit 1300 pre-70's Historic 'B' grade class sounds very good to me. Maybe the powers that be can sort that one out for us.

 

- The dilemma created by Scaleauto with the introduction of the new chassis and production seizing of the previous version, can only be resolved if these two chassis are run in two different rulesets. Of course they can be raced together (especially if body and motor options are the same), BUT not in competition to each other. In fact, I personally think the simplest way is to remove the Viper body from the current ruleset (where it has created a huge disparity) and setup a Viper only class with the new Scaleauto chassis as a different race class all together.

 

- The lexan 'open' chassis classes are not for everybody and was never intended to be. But there is no doubt that they are exciting and fast. They are not expensive in the long run and once guys realise these classes allow them to limit their overall spares cost and more efficient use of common spares across their fleet, it all start to make sense. I have competitive OAPR LMP bodies and chassis that go back to 2012 and I bet the same will be the case with my (now) new GT3's.

 

Cheers,

 

Jan

Edited June 29, 2017 by Springbok Racer

[Zlartibartfast]

At the last Model car race at Mr.Slotcar I was asked why I didn't race in the Historic class. The answer was quite simple in as much as my old 1300 was not legal for that race and looking at what was being run in the class my 1700 would not have been legal either, I use the 1700 on a Mini-Z anyways. The reason for that would have been the body mounting plates and probably the front end set up. When new parts come out they should be only used if they have been available to everyone to buy at their track, saying that the new parts are available over the internet is not a good enough reason to change the rules in a class. Also what would be wrong about using an older chassis in a race, just because a 1300 doesn't have the new gofastium alloy parts on it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be used. The word historic actually means old, ancient, which the 1300 is and dare one add a lot more fun to use. Oops, sorry about the use of the F word then, I forgot that with some racers the words fun and slotcars can't be used in the same sentance.

If and when the Plafit 1300 chassis goes out of production then and only then should it be dropped from racing in the historic classes, even then it could still be used for a couple of years because there would be spare parts hidden away somewhere and other parts can be straightened if badly damaged. Sturdy little bugger that it is.

Commercial tracks need to sell parts to stay in business, as they would not survive on track hire and club race nights alone , along with birthday partys, etc. But you will find that it is also the importers and manufacturers of parts that drive these rule changes because they also need to make a living.

Rule changes from year to year, event to event are what stop some racers from entering races. One track only wants to use a fox4 motor while at another track they only want to use another motor for the same class. I know these are at the cheaper end of things but the lack of consistancy is what annoys some of us. Now I am told we have to use NSR motors in the Scaleauto class but we have to use the Scaleauto tyres, which are not as good as the Plafit tyres, so it doesn't come down to performance of the parts does it.

Now there is rule changes in the Mini-Z to try and slow up the McLarens, where were the rule changes when the Audi's were doing the winning. All these changes will do is destroy what was a great class, there will come a time when another body will become available to use that will beat the McLaren. You either improve the other cars to beat the McLaren, or ban the use of the McLaren but you don't stuff up the rules so that no one knows what is going on. And now we are getting the same complaints about the Viper in Scaleauto races. There was a post a whileback about R&D specifically in the Slotworx chassis about springs, spacers, motors, bodies etc to make the car run better, surely this is what using a McLaren or Viper body is all about in their respective classes. Some bodies are just better than others and if that is what gives the racer an advantage they will use it wont they and if you wait long enough there will come along another body that gives an advantage in some area so why worry about it. The rules and regulations should not be changed to suit the aesthetics of a race, ie only having one body style being used.

As to the new Scaleauto chassis not being used because it gives a performance advantage is beyond comprehension, it makes a mockery of the R & D argument. If it's that much better use the f#@**g thing because you can bet that when the guys from Europe rock up next year they wont be using the older style chassis. Those guys are going to have the latest and greatest equipment that Scaleauto has available. What we will probably need are silver platters for us to sit on and hand them our arses with.

What I am trying to say in my own rambling, slightly incoherent and repetitive style is don't mess with the rules just because one body gives a perceived advantage, either improve your gear, update it and don't create new classes because of those same perceived advantages.

Regards Richard M.

[Caddo]

The "evolution" of slot car technology affects all race groups, small or large.

 

It is difficult to "future proof" class rules against technological advancement.

 

At the end of the day lap times are really irrelevant, it is all about the contest.

 

Handicapping the newer technology stops the older technology from being left behind.

[wwwace]

At the last Model car race at Mr.Slotcar I was asked why I didn't race in the Historic class. The answer was quite simple in as much as my old 1300 was not legal for that race and looking at what was being run in the class my 1700 would not have been legal either, I use the 1700 on a Mini-Z anyways. The reason for that would have been the body mounting plates and probably the front end set up. When new parts come out they should be only used if they have been available to everyone to buy at their track, saying that the new parts are available over the internet is not a good enough reason to change the rules in a class. Also what would be wrong about using an older chassis in a race, just because a 1300 doesn't have the new gofastium alloy parts on it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be used. The word historic actually means old, ancient, which the 1300 is and dare one add a lot more fun to use. Oops, sorry about the use of the F word then, I forgot that with some racers the words fun and slotcars can't be used in the same sentance.

If and when the Plafit 1300 chassis goes out of production then and only then should it be dropped from racing in the historic classes, even then it could still be used for a couple of years because there would be spare parts hidden away somewhere and other parts can be straightened if badly damaged. Sturdy little bugger that it is.

Regards Richard M.

 

 

Hi Richard,

The Plafit 1300 Excel chassis system went out off production officially in June 2012. No complete chassis and only a few spare parts have been available from Japan since then.

Within the 1/24 Plafit Historic's Class 2017 regulations, the Excel chassis is still included and probably will remain there for years to come if racers prefer this.

So, I do not understand why you could not, as you state, enter your car "at the last model car race at Mr.Slotcar" (are you referring to the 2017 Model Car Nationals ?).

The Plafit Historic's class is one of the longest running formats we have here in Australia, established in 2004. In fact, it put 1/24 model car racing on the map here in OZ and it still is one of the most popular classes. Of course with the production stop of the 1300 Excel the move to the 1700 PLAFIT3 chassis series was unavoidable. Therefore together with Plafit we introduced the 1700C, a chassis especially designed for our 1/24 Historic's class which even found its way into the Japanese model car racing scene with the use of Aussie made Can Am and Sports Car Lexan bodies used over there.

The 1700C chassis regulations have been limited to a few selected parts out off the vast 1700 chassis system to keep things simple in this class and also to keep in line with the old 1300 Excel.

This format has certainly worked now for many years and will continue to do so.

Cheers

Werner

[Camber]

At the last Model car race at Mr.Slotcar I was asked why I didn't race in the Historic class. The answer was quite simple in as much as my old 1300 was not legal for that race

 

Actually the 1300 chassis is legal to use in historics. (edit coincidental post with Werner)

 

People are going to love me for this, but I am introducing a rule change for the bodies in my class due to the fact I didn't anticipate racers cutting the bodies in a manner so that they sit much lower than they should. This gives an un fair advantage and ruins the look of the cars.

I might add that while I've known about this for a while, I've been getting more and more feedback from racers about the issue to implement a body height rule.

 

There are 2 ways to make your bodies legal if it is too low:

 

* Put washers/spacers under the body mount between the "H" plate.

* Re mount the body.

 

I have new bodies coming with tech check marks in the vac form along the sil lines so this issue will disappear with the new bodies.

 

Let the flood of tears roll....

Edited July 2, 2017 by Camber

[Springbok Racer]

Richard M,

 

Allow me to address a few of your statements.

 

- The last time I checked the National ruleset for Plafit Historics; the Plafit 1300 was legal to race. I can also tell you that it has been out of production for at least 5 years.

 

- Scaleauto wheels are the only wheels and tyres that are legal under the current National Scaleauto ruleset. When local clubs use Plafit wheels (for whatever reason) it does not mean it is legal at National level, or at events organised to National rules.

 

- The NSR 25King Evo motor and the Scaleauto Sc-26 Endurance are the only two legal motors under the current National Scaleauto ruleset and event organisers have to make the choice when hosting an event. This has been the case since 2012. Alas the original Scaleauto motor (Sc-12) being dropped by Scaleauto in the middle of 2011, was the reason why the NSR motor was introduced as an alternative choice.

 

- The new Scaleauto chassis is not legal under the current National Scaleauto ruleset. It's exclusion has nothing to do with it's perceived performance, but all to do with the fact that it has not yet been included in the rules. There is a specific procedure for these rules to change and that has not yet been done for the new chassis.

 

- The choice between the Fox4 and another motor (you probably mean the SRP25) is a choice that event organisers can make according to the current National ruleset. In this case I can only assume you mean the Slotworx V8's, as I am not aware of any other National class where this specific motor choice exits.

 

I hope that clears up some of the misconceptions existing amongst many of our racers. Basically, read the National rulesets and don't just believe another racers opinion.

 

Cheers,

 

Jan

 

 

[Springbok Racer]

I have new bodies coming with tech check marks in the vac form along the sil lines so this issue will disappear with the new bodies.

 

Excellent Cam!

 

Cheers,

 

Jan

[espsix]

Regards Richard M.

 

One paragraph you argue for things to stay the same, the next your fighting for change, which do you want?

Plafit canam/historic has not changed its rule set in the last few years that I know of, grab yourself a 1700C, it is all you need for a legal, race winner, consign the 1300 to club racing.

The recent MCN's have shown that the new MZ rules are working better than the old.

The ScaleAuto rules have always been broken, so just buy a Viper, then wait until the new chassis is introduced, then put your viper body on that.

But please don't blame the rules for your cars not being legal, sorry, but that's on you.

 

[axman]

Hi Richard in reference to Plafit and Scaleauto when the new chassis became available in both instances the National organisers felt it prudent to see out the year with the older chassis for consistency of racing and to keep all the existing car set-ups race on a level playing field. Considering production had stopped for both of these chassis I feel this was the right decision.

 

In reference to the Mclaren and Viper body issue's are not quiet that simple and I have to keep reminding myself with Mini Z and Scaleauto we are racing model cars - not slotcars who appeals to a very different type of racer.

 

A Slotcar racer does'nt care about what type of body he races.. All that matters is its the lightest, fastest, brightest and works for the win.

A Scale Model racer wants to see a grid line up of cars all different and hopefully on some parity so he can race the body of his choice.

 

Basically I'm a Slotcar racer who by choice races against Model Car racers. I find it a pain to have to re build and handicap a perfectly good race winning car just to comply with body choice. ( we're not racing horses!) For me, if the Mclaren or the Viper is the best body thats all that matters, and personally I could'nt care if every car on the grid was the same body style.

Trouble is.. were racing Model Cars so I have to begrudgely admit the organisers of these classes are probably doing the right thing as most that run these cars are Scale Model Racers.

Edited July 2, 2017 by axman