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rosco01

My Pioneer Camaro's

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Ok - as promised... report on my two Pioneer Camaro's..

 

What can I say about the body - only one word... magnificent.

Yes, a little heavy and to scale - a bit higher off the track than probably would result in a better handling model.. but, superb.

 

Chassis - well, #7 was brilliant - right out of the box.... great mesh and all four tyres sat nicely on the set-up board.

Don't like the guide arrangement - and will probably change it for something much more rigid and set at correct height - once the front axle bushes are glued and tyres trued.

 

#8... was not the free-spirited "happy" model of #7.... it "chugged" and was noisy.

 

I popped off that great body and ran it at low volts under the magnifying light.

The spur gear and pinion were fighting each other...

 

For most who have a sound mathematical base - anything which seems to divide itself equally by a common denominator - in this case - 3, suggested a pinion tooth/eccentric issue...

 

I could not find any such tooth related issue.. so went looking for some fault in the spur... bearing in mind, there are three sprue marks on the face of the gear.

 

I found some issues in the valleys of the cuts and set about creating a better clearance... which resulted in a much better mesh.. but, on powering up - it continued to have a binding issue a the three now marked locations.

 

I ended up pressing off the wheel (thank goodness these are not knurled - and thanks to the engineer who decided not to - and I must state categorically here - these plastic wheels are simply the best I have yet encountered... all mine are perfectly true - front and rear, on both models.... well done, Pioneer).

 

The spur and pinion are both splined (again, thanks Pioneer for not knurling them) - but pressed off nicely with only a slightly heavier load to break the joint, then they smoothly followed the spline to the end and slipped off.

 

I could not find anything in the splines of the rear axle.. but cleaned them out anyway with the back of a fine tipped exacto blade.

 

I re-fitted the spur and assembled the pair.. and found that, although the mess was much better - there was now one location previously not encountered where it bound... so, off again and studied that one for cause... nothing.

 

I pressed on the spur again - and this blasted meshing issue was moving.. I couldn't explain it and it was beginning to grate.

 

I made a corporate decision to simply run the assembly under power and use some cutting compound to bed the two together... which worked.. resulting in nicely meshed running. I used a cutting solution (Trefolex) which I have found to out-perform brasso and toothpaste.. plus it leaves an awful lot less mess and is easily wiped off.

 

I then decided that I'd set the rear axle bushes.. with cyano and baking soda... the resultant fixing of these brought back the mesh issue... so, again - went for the Trefolex.... which again worked.

 

There was a little slop in the axle/bush so, I used cyano and oil to take this up.. one nano-second too long and my axle began to bind.. so, again - off with the wheel and out with the axle.... cleaned the excess off the axle and re-fitted the assembly...

 

Put power to the motor and the mesh with three binding points had returned.... I was really starting to get annoyed.. probably because I simply (how appropriate) could not understand why....

 

I pulled the wheel again and removed the axle - fitted the assembly to the tyre truer and turned down the volts to the slowest I could get it to turn over on the truer.... I found nothing... no run-out, no eccentricity .. nothing.

 

This sent me to the pinion... which was fitted far too close to the motor for me to be able to get a remover into the clearance... I then set up a pair of dividers and applied power.... what I found was that the tooth ends of the pinion were in fact running in a true circumfrence.. but - the pinion hub was eccentric on the splined motor shaft.....

 

It took me a little while to identify that the bedding in process I had performed twice had set the outer diameter of the pinion teeth to the spur... and also the mesh the spur teeth within the pinion....

 

It then dawned on me (like Newton's apple) - that each time I had re-assembled the rear axle/pinion - I was putting it back together at a different constant mesh..... back to the mathematical association above...

 

It took a little while to "find" the correct position of this repeating relationship.. but I did... and now, I'm very happy to report - this chassis/model runs beautifully.... the mesh is great and the rear axle is set without any slop.

 

I have now marked the pinion and spur sides with a punched dot for alignment - and will also do this to the #7 car.... just in case.

 

Ok - next issue...

 

With all the rigorous pressing and re-fitting of the rear axle, there must have been an achillies heel in the connector...

When I applied power to the braids (as opposed to directly to the motor performed on all previous occasions save the initial power up) it was dead.

 

I had to slit open the heat shrink tube to find a broken connection at the ceramic capacitor - soldered it back together and fitted some new shrink tube.

 

The guide - nup, this will be totally replaced. I can appreciate that the design affords easy and quick replacement of the braid.. but the entire assembly is far too sloppy for my liking.

 

I will fit a tube and a different brand of generic guide to both models when I have glued and trued the front tyres and set the bushes/axle to a constant height.

 

Body float - nup.. there is none.. all sides and ends will be trimmed on both models to afford some float.... they won't need much, as both the chassis and body on both these models are very well mated... they clip together very well with no high or low joints - well done, Pioneer.

 

Overall - yes, love these cars... they are indeed a great credit to the manufacturer...

 

Perhaps, as we learn more and more about the physics of slot cars - we are a little hyper-critical of the mechanicals... I believe the majority of those purchasing this model would simply "run" them.... I prefer to "tinker" a bit and try to get them running sweeter before they make the track.. just me, I'm afraid.

 

frats,

Rosco

Edited by rosco01

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Interesting Roscoe ran these Pioneer cars for many years and have never found a inherent fault with them, my earlier one's are much modified with just the body and chassis the original parts, but these were done for a reason to be reasonably competitive against scratch built large tin tops, my later one's have had the odd problem like loosing the odd wheel , but that's been rectified now , had similar with the gears but valve grinding compound cured that and have fitted the B Nova conversion plate to a few of them ,all the early one's so I can use guides like slot lt and Avant which reduces guide slop a lot.

The Alan Green no 8 has really needed nothing done to it straight out of the box , I always strip every car I get down and just reassemble after greasing and lubing things like motors, bearings and gears not necessary but my choice as they run quieter and smoother, agree about the wheels rather good and run true, all my Camaro's are amongst my favourite cars, looking forward to more Pioneer cars in the future. :)

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Thanks Peter,

They both run equally quiet now - might have just been one of those cars which got a thin QC check on the way down the line.

Yes, love the detail and overall great product - looking forward to many more of these Pioneer models in my garage.

 

Espix - it is indeed very nasty stuff, but it works a treat. I especially find it works wonders when drilling brass with a pin vice - the cut is just so clean and it pulls all the swarf out as the bit goes deeper - not to mention keeping the edges of these expensive bits sharp... might have to invest in an ebola suit - thanks for the warning, duly noted.

 

frats,

Rosco

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Hi Rosco,

 

On most side winder gear set-up models (Scalextric, Fly, Pioneer, Slot-it etc) the distance between the centre of the motor shaft and the centre of the axle should be 12mm. Like this:-

 

dr-20_zpsmqeemj4z.jpg

 

In reality, most of the gear sizes (all makers) are a little fudged and tweaked a little away from what would appear to be correct mathematically. This has more to do with the necessity to build in some tolerance (error) for the manufacture process and the accepted allowance for the fact that the gear will collect debris and dirt so some wriggle room needs to be left between the teeth. You need to factor in the flex between the motor mount and axle bush carriers as well. It all makes a difference to the smoothness/noise/possible binding of the mesh.

 

I think the regular binding you have experienced has more to do with the actual pinion gear being slightly out of round or out of line (or a combination of both) so that at a specific turn point (regular, 3 times) one of the teeth V's on the pinion is hard up into the pitch point of the spur.

 

We have tested many different types of material over the last 12 months or so to try and limit any problems from the gears. All new product (from January 2015) uses a special blend of plastic polymer that we up-issue to the moulder. Now I have read your analysis, several times, I wonder if this current material is not quite shrinking enough on cooling and is exposing a fault in the pitch circle with, say, one in 50 assemblies?

 

I think I will try an experiment: find a Mustang/Camaro with binding gears and take the entire motor/axle combo out and transplant it into a Dodge Charger chassis. If the bind goes away then it is the distance between the centre of motor shaft and the centre of axle that may be the issue.

 

BTW, the three marks on the face of the spur gear are ejection pin marks. These are the pop-up pins on the tool that press the gear out of the cavity as the tool opens.

 

Thanks for taking time to explain your findings.

 

Jules

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Wow, Jules - in all my modeling history - I've never had such rapid and direct response from any manufacturer than you.

Your detail and dedication to your product is simply amazing - and willingness to share with your clients/customers - thank you.

 

Ok - I did a little more work on the #7 car last night - I would certainly have liked to have been "gifted" with your reply previous - but the model is not back together yet and I will endeavor to study what you post.. hopefully, with some information of my now further educated findings.

 

Yes, in both models, there is the designed clearance between pinion and spur - which I will retain.

I did find that the pinion is ever-so-slightly out of round as it sits on the motor shaft spline - but certainly, these are not in the same league as lathe cut brass pinions - I can accept this.

 

I have not had issue with any temperature related binding in both pinion or spur - and am of the ignorant opinion that the molding process has been effected to an exacting tolerance. The spacing, pitch, depth and length of all teeth - as far as I am able to detect - are much better than any similar plastic product... perhaps with one exception - but that one has the benefit of being fitted and most likely cut on a brass hub.

 

If I were to make suggestion - it would be directed towards the fitting of the spur and pinion to the motor and axle shaft splines.

 

On one of my models, both were exact... with the other - they were both out - and it was there where the binding existed.

 

The pinion ran off centre .....ummmm.... with a degree of circumfral run-out/in - as viewed end on... which was not tooth length related, but entire pinion... I could detect that the hub of the pinion was running eccentric as well - and so believed it to be a pressing issue.

 

The spur ran eccentric....ummmmm not in a vertical plane - wobble, as viewed from vertically above - if you like - and I further believe this to have eventuated when pressing the spur onto the axle spline.

 

Between the two - and as you have validated - the perpetual mating at every third spur revolution - resulted in the bind.. and subsequent noise.

 

I believe I have corrected sufficiently enough that no replacement of parts is warranted.... the mesh is now both free and true.. but, as I have posted above - I have "marked" the mesh relationship on both pinion and spur.

 

I effected correction of the spur by removal and cleaning of both sets of splines - and then drilled a vertical hole in a block of wood, fitted the axle and pressed down the spur until it sat flush on the wood block...

 

I used a tyre truer to finish off the running of the spur on the axle - on the truer,there was minimal eccentricity to begin with once it was fitted almost square to the axle.. but I trued it up with some very fine wet and dry on a solid backed steel block whilst the opportunity arose.

 

I could do nothing with the pinion to correct the run-out. I did manage to open the clearance from the motor body - and this afforded some relief to the issue by meshing ever-so-slightly further into the spur - probably the greater result may have been by the better aligning of the pinion on the shaft - if there was some swarf in one of the motor shaft splines causing it to run slightly off parallel to the shaft.

 

I contemplated running the motor and trimming the ends of the pinion with the above sanding block method - but didn't... my fear was that the spur teeth might cause issue with binding in the pinion valleys... so - just reverted to bedding in the new mesh with some cutting compound in running.

 

I did not want to compromise the now sound running spur on the axle.

 

After bedding-in was effected - the mesh became both smoother and quieter... I am very happy with my efforts.

 

I did deliberately change this mesh alignment to a mid-point and noted that it again binds... so, my observations probably support that the pinion has been pressed on off-centre... I do not have the understanding nor knowledge/experience in how your team fit pinions to motor shafts... if, perhaps there is margin to fine tune this further - I believe it will result in a more consistent across-the-range production... or, as you further suggest - my case might just be one out of the 50 which does not mesh as designed.... and I look forward now to a issue free collection of the next 48....

 

Thank you for your time, Jules - and in particular for responding to my very much layman and ignorant position as a modeler - without one jot of engineering education/qualification.... much appreciated.

 

frats,

Rosco

Edited by rosco01

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The pinion on my Charger also has the hole either out of centre, or not square.

Like yours, adjusting both the spur and pinion to allign better, and some running in with AutoSol on the teeth solved my issues.

 

Not too sure if the hole in the pinion is part of the mold (in which case it should never be off centre), or if it's drilled in later.

If it is part of the mold, then the fitment of the pinion is somehow skewing the pinions.

If it is drilled later, then it's possible that some pinions are not centred correctly when being drilled.

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I hadn't considered that the pinion hole may have been drilled post mold, SR - if that's the case, and it's the culprit - I would probably suggest the mold have a centred dimple for drilling purposes...doesn't take much for one flute of a drill bit to bite before the other - resulting in an off-centre hole.

 

If the mold has a hole forming stud - which I now doubt, there's something going amiss with the size/location of it - perhaps slightly too small - and the subsequent pressing of the motor shaft spline is causing the pinion to become offset...

 

Which AutoSol?... white or gold?

 

frats,

Rosco

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my pioneer mustang notchback kicks azz in local series i am in, so far this year.

 

good handling

low down grunt

top end

 

what else do you want?


Shed People Mutual Admiration Society

2 times Australian National Champion

1991-Flexicar 1999- Group 12 Sedan

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Yes, John - I can't wait to run these Camaro's - now that I've got them nicely set up.

 

Pinion and spur meshed smoothly, motor glued into position.

 

Tyres glued and trued to rims, axle bushes glued with all four tyres on the deck.

 

Chassis perimeter trimmed to "float".

 

Only deal to address is the guide.. will give them both a run on original then decide.

 

Need to go visit a track and see how good these puppies are..

 

frats,

Rosco

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I would have simply thrown the pinion over my shoulder and replaced it, you guys must have too much time to spend on an item that is less than $2.00 to replace.

Took about 5 mins to line everything up correctly, and then the car just sat there running for about 30mins whilst I did other things.

 

From memory, the Pioneers have a 7mm pinion, and as such are a little difficult to get replacements.

Not only that, but where do you get pinions for $2 each?

 

 

Which AutoSol?... white or gold?

 

frats, Rosco

This is the one I have, and it seems to work well for me...

I don't remember where I got it from, but I've had it 'forever'...

 

http://autosol.com.au/autosol-polishing-products/metal-care/chrome-care/autosol-chrome-polish-75ml-boxed/detail/25/flypage/39.html?sef=hcfp

productS1000.png

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I'm guessing you can fit a third party pinion to a splined motor shaft... haven't done that yet.

 

Thanks S_R - yes, got the gold and silver.... silver one is very tame - meant for soft metal... the gold is much more abrasive.

Think I got my lot from Auto... cowshed.

 

frats,

Rosco

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