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Pioneer Lady Luck Charger


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#1 Burglar

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:55 PM

I mentioned somewhere else that I have one of these that I am readying for wood track no-magnet racing. Generally these perform pretty well out of the box but I figured a little tuning and some precautions to avoid some issues I'd experienced before wouldn't hurt. I have also made quite a few mods to Pioneers before and have a good idea of what works.

Front axle: Slot.It 3/32" 50mm with the Pioneer rear axle bushings (the ones with the oil holes) and 15x8 CB Design steel wheels, fitted with Slot.It zero tyres. Braced front axle mount with styrene square rod and 0.010" card. See photo. Card section cut slightly with sanding drum to allow wires to pass over easily. Bushes glued to bush mountings and the styrene reinforcers. Join between card and rod glued with both super glue (rear) and polystyrene cement (along the front). Combined with leaving the two tabs from the bonnet to the front axle mount intact this front axle should be as bulletproof as a Pioneer gets.

Guide: Slot.It SICH10 screw fit guide fitted with the new Pioneer conversion from B-NOVA, 1/32" plate plus small PVC spacer included specifically for Pioneers. Bob has instructions for this on his forum at SCI. You need to use a couple of drill sizes (SAE) to enlarge the guide post to take the B-NOVA conversion, you just twist these through with your fingers (I actually hold the drill and rotate the chassis on it!). Will fit Slot.It brushes and eyelets, with new wires back to the standard motor. The door on the chassis has been replaced with another one from my parts box and the original wiring loom and door just put to one side as it is mint.

Rear axle: Slot.It 3/32" 48mm with Slot.It brass bushings set up using the Slot Car Corner bushing alignment kit for Slot.It bushings and glued in place. 15x11 CB Design steel wheels with 1007 Yellow Dog urethanes from SCC. Slot.It 1936 lightweight spur, and NSR 7112 pinion fitted to the standard 18K QS Typhoon, which has been hot glued in. Of course I aligned the axle after the motor was glued in, but I made sure the pinion was lined up nicely with the spur first. This alignment kit cost me something like $8 from Nick at Nichobbies, who did a special order for me when I was buying something else, so I got out of some expensive shipping (the SCC set up block was with the same order - I polished it today so as to make checking the front tyre clearance easier). I don't need to use any spacers between the bushing and the spur for the alignment to be perfect, thanks to my MB Slot puller and press. The puller even allows adjustment when in the chassis if needed, but only to increase clearance. Thankfully I didn't need to.

Body and interior mods: I gave the primer patches a light sanding with 1000 grit to dull them. I found out that the primer patches are actually quite thin, and the red one did wear through a bit. The interior has been sightly modified underneath. I ground away the interior mounts as I do not run those screws and I wanted the body to be able to float a bit if necessary. I also cut away part of the interior tray under the rear wheel arches to increase clearance, but these is not visible when the car is assembled. If you have one of these Chargers you will notice a wheel cut away in the side panels of the interior. I basically cut that section away more.

Here are some photos.

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Edited by Burglar, 25 June 2012 - 01:16 AM.

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#2 Roger Miller

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 09:04 AM

Howdy,
Nice write up.

A lot of people use the Ninco sprung guide as it has a little give up and down. Also made of slippery plastic.
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The Slot it 07 is a monster, but could work.

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The consensus is the SCX braid is the best.

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I'm using bits of styrene rod to fill guide hole and then I have a set of drills in .1mm steps and drill out by hand till guide fits.

I like bearings on front Axels. When u spin by hand they just turn for ages.
The brass tube right across the chassis allows the wheels to spin for longer, pressure per area, I guess.
On the axles I like 2 spacers per wheel as thrust bearings.
These do the trick.....if you can pick them up !
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Those NSR gears are nice and thin, free of friction, eh.
...............Take it easy

#3 Burglar

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 01:21 PM

Cheers. The Slot.It 07 guide will work, I've modified one before to suit, the main work on both the 07 and the 10 is around the front of the guide due to the difference in shape. The Ninco guide looks as though it would have the same issue, given the similarity in shape. The only thing I think might be an issue using the B-NOVA set up with a Ninco is that the guide post might need to be drilled out more. I tend to think that the post on mine has been drilled out a fair way already, and I wouldn't like to push my luck with that.

Basically what you do is just rasp away with a half-round file in the housing at the front of the chassis to enlarge the housing, and use a flat file to take as much of the corners off the front of the guide as you can without weakening the guide where the braids fit. I've done this a few times and while it is time consuming it works. I also cut the back of the guide some with the flat file to round the shape and cut down the top of the blade slightly with the file too, all to make it find in the housing more like the original Pioneer guide. On this car it worked really well, but I've practiced on another couple of cars before. I will say that the new piece included with the B-NOVA Pioneer set really does make it easier. I got a set of the three different depth B-NOVA plates from Chris at Thunderbird a while back and used those for the previous ones, but then I bought something like six different sets from Bob at B-NOVA direct (if you buy six you pay no postage) but for some reason seven came, I think he threw in an extra set of the new Carrera/SCX ones for me. Cost me $30 delivered for the following:


2 x GM-1 1/32 (6 conversions total, all with the Pioneer pieces)
2 x GM-1 mixed sizes (2x1/32, 2x1/16, 2x3/32)
2 x GM-2 (a total 4 conversions, but as I said he seems to have thrown in an extra set, so I have enough to do six)

I don't use the 07 guide as I don't really find any advantage to the deeper guide if the front end of the car is set up with the guide against the track braid/slot. I have found though that there are issues with the 07 being too long at the back, so I had to cut that off too. I just find with the 10 that I only need to modify the guide to fit the chassis, whereas with the 07 I was making mods to suit the track as well. Pioneer supply a deep guide because those run better on wood tracks mainly because the front tyres don't allow the guide to sit properly in the slot.

Yeah the NSR gear is great, so long as you line it up nice with the spur. I was lucky with this one. Basically I pressed the gear on until it was very close (but not snug) against the MB Slot press (i.e., with sufficient gap that I could get the puller on if I needed to) and it just lined right up, no spacer needed between the bushing and the spur. I will buy a 1934 pinion for when I want to change ratios for bigger tracks. I think this is likely to be a better method than using the 7113 pinion, just because changing spurs at the track is much easier than changing pinions, and I don't need to unglue the motor. The 7113 doesn't give you anywhere to go, ratios wise. You end up having to use the 1938 spur, and I find that when the number of teeth increases the mesh tightens.

I haven't used the SCX Pro braid. I have used Slot.It braid and found that very good; I also have some SCC braid that I haven't tried yet.

The bracing is a precaution. Anyone who's broken a Pioneer front axle mount will understand why ...

Edited by Burglar, 24 June 2012 - 01:33 PM.

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#4 Burglar

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 09:52 PM

Tonight I made some more changes to this car.

I actually removed the brass bushings (the Pioneer rear axle bushings with oil holes) because I couldn't get the alignment quite right, or it had shifted after I glued in the brace. I put the plastic ones back in and checked the alignment was right and glued it properly again, and then adjusted the spacers etc so that everything is quite firm (but free). It's not binding like it was previously. I also added one thin spacer to the non-gear side of the rear axle to get the track right, and added some of that thin Professor Motor lead to various places in the chassis after grinding flat a couple of places inside the chassis.

I do seem to have lost a couple of those Slot.It grub screws though. Hopefully I can pick up a packet of them from Thunderbird. I had to 'borrow' some from a pair of my 15x7 wheels because the ones for the 15x11s seem to be missing.
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#5 Roger Miller

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 10:11 AM

I like the sloting plus victory bearings as they are 2 piece.

This allows alignment.
and
The plastic outer means positive bond when gluing.

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Guides = NSR, NSR race, Ninco pro-unsprung, Ninco pro suspension, slotingplus sport, STD sloting plus.

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...........................slot it woody on right

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Edited by Roger Miller, 01 September 2012 - 11:02 AM.

...............Take it easy

#6 Roger Miller

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 10:18 AM

View PostBurglar, on 24 June 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:



I do seem to have lost a couple of those Slot.It grub screws though. Hopefully I can pick up a packet of them from Thunderbird. I had to 'borrow' some from a pair of my 15x7 wheels because the ones for the 15x11s seem to be missing.

The grub screws fly out of the packets, when opening ! :wacko:

The Vanquish tires fit nicely on those rims 15 x 11.
I bet u'll struggle to get them under the guards, though.

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...............Take it easy

#7 Burglar

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 10:39 AM

I managed to fit the 1009Y tyre under the back of the Charger, but it lifted the back up too high.

Those tyres might be good replacement for a Carrera hot rod. Have you tried that? My dad has a Carrera Willys but the handling is poor, largely I think because of the rear tyres (partly also because of a relatively high CG)

Those bearings look very good. I'd be pushing my luck though snapping these glued in bushes out for a second time. The standard plastic bushes look as though they will do the trick with these new spacers and wheels.

The Slot.It CH10 looks much more like the Ninco in terms of the keel, the top of it looks like the CH07 wood guide.

I might head out to Thunderbird tomorrow evening if Chris has grub screws.

Edited by Burglar, 25 June 2012 - 10:43 AM.

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#8 Roger Miller

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 11:06 AM

View PostBurglar, on 25 June 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

I managed to fit the 1009Y tyre under the back of the Charger, but it lifted the back up too high.

Those tyres might be good replacement for a Carrera hot rod. Have you tried that? My dad has a Carrera Willys but the handling is poor, largely I think because of the rear tyres (partly also because of a relatively high CG)

Im not keen on the yellow dogs......tooo damn hard in my book.

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A few peoples using F1 slot it rims, but there's the hub issue....with CB wheels and vanquish tires, ...there's hope.
Grinder fixes height issues. NSR are extreme compound.

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Edited by Roger Miller, 01 September 2012 - 01:29 PM.

...............Take it easy

#9 Burglar

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 11:14 AM

Also, Yellow Dogs look like they have been cut from a hosepipe!

They don't have any numbers on them either, which means they are easy to get mixed up, especially if you have to switch between urethanes and silicones.

I really wish that the guys I race with would ditch the silicones, but they are tight arses and silicones never wear out.
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#10 Burglar

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:44 PM

Chris was all out of those grub screws when I went out there a week ago but I did manage to pick up a couple of Cheetah II motors up off him for a very nice price ($10 each).

Here are some new photos of my Lady Luck Charger, which is all done besides painting the wheels Tamiya Satin Black, which I agree with BMR would look better.

Under the rear of the interior, showing what I had to cut away to fit those 15x11 wheels in:

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The finished chassis with wiring in place:

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Underneath, showing everything in place: Slot.It rear axle and NSR 7112 and Slot.It 1936 gears, CB Design 15x11 (1007 Yellow Dogs) and 15x8 (Slot.It zero grips) wheels, Slot.It 50mm (front) and 48mm (rear) axles, and Slot.It guide and braid fitted via B-NOVA conversion.

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Car from driver side:

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Edited by Burglar, 03 July 2012 - 11:47 PM.

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#11 Burglar

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 03:30 AM

Wow, ran this car on the track tonight, went like a demon first time out. Considerably quicker around the track than the last Pioneer Charger I ran around that track (although that was fast too), my fastest time on it was 8.3 seconds on the slowest lane and after quite a few laps my friend Steve (who owns the track) managed a 7.99 on the fastest lane, which I think is the fastest any full bodied standard motor non-lowered and standard ratio car has ever done on that track. The guide change does make a big difference to handling consistency but I think those wide 1007Y tyres made the difference in terms of lap times. We were getting so much grip with this car through the chicane even compared to my Mustang with the 15x8 wheels and 1404 tyres. They were urethane too on a track normally run with silicones so theoretically grip should have been poor.

For me a good lap time generally is in the 9s on this track.

Edited by Burglar, 16 July 2012 - 01:28 PM.

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#12 Burglar

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:34 PM

I am working on incorporating these same mods into a Pioneer Mustang for Trans Am races. One of the most important mods is the front axle brace. I can't believe how weak and sloppy the mounts have become in my Jerry Titus Mustang. I'm pretty sure I would have snapped it eventually. The brace is very simple to construct. It doesn't click in behind the two tabs on the floor like you can with the Charger chassis, you just glue it in with CA pushing it as far forward as possible.

I tried out that Gorilla Glue with this one as it is supposed to be 'impact resistant'. First impression is that it is very thick and slow setting. I don't think it's the best glue for all applications as it's viscosity is quite low compared to others, meaning that the capillary action we sometimes rely on is reduced. It would seem best for situations where there is a gap to be filled.

Here are some photos of the Mustang after mods. Hopefully they provide good information.

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To install the B-NOVA conversion you need to enlarge the size of the guide post hole to 3/8". I find it best to enlarge it to 11/32" first. The standard hole is roughly 5/8"

Cut the square styrene rod slightly too long to fit between the rails and then use a flat file to make it fit accurately. Butt it against the back of the white plastic bushings and glue in with super glue. Add the piece of .030" styrene card the same way, between the supports. Cut a notch in the top (I used the 3M ceramic drum in my flex shaft) to allow wires to pass to the new guide (Slot.It CH10 or CH07) depending on track etc. The photo below shows this from the other side, and shows the notch for the wires more clearly. Note also the screw into the chassis from the B-NOVA plate. You need to countersink the plate by getting a 5/8" drill bit or similar and countersinking it by hand. I don''t put glue between the chassis and the plate but I did cover the thread of the screw with glue (and some of that would have run down). The bushings are glued in place using glue on top (allowing capillary action take it the bottom) and glue between the bushings and the brace. Polystyrene cement was brushed between the two styrene pieces to increase the bond. It's very firm. The axle height remains standard, but the problem front ride height will be fixed by fitting CB Design 15x8 wheels and 19x10 Slot.It SIPT07 tyres.


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If you compare chassis below the top one is the one I did today, the bottom one is one that had a B-NOVA conversion fitted a while back but no brace (it's axle mounts broke, inspiring the brace as a routine mod). Note the thickness difference in the guide housing. Quite a lot of filing is required in this area. A closer view of the housing before filing is given above.

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When you have filed the chassis guide housing enough with the half-round file and guide enough with the flat file you will be able to move it from side to side without rubbing and it will look like this (you will also need to round the back of the guide):

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Edited by Burglar, 11 July 2012 - 10:32 PM.

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#13 choc-ice

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:43 PM

Wow, that's a chunk of work!

What's the benefit of the front axle brace? Is it to prevent something from breaking or to make the chassis stiffer for better handling?
3D modelling a slot car - Dodge Monaco

#14 Burglar

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:35 PM

Both. The front axle mounts get more and more slack and eventually break.

Building the brace is easy if you have the glue and some styrene card and square rod. On the Mustang I would do the next one with a larger piece of card with the rod butting against it from behind, as there is a fair bit of room there. The notch is easy if you have the right tools, but it doesn't need to look as nice and curved as mine. The plastic bushes are standard. They are less sloppy when the mounts are braced up and you have sufficient spacers in there to take up the side to side slack. You are then left with a small amount of vertical movement, which can help in some situations.

The guide conversion is also easy except for all the laborious filing to make the rectangular guide fit the round housing.

Together with using lower profile tyres (I use the Slot.It zero grips, but that's because I have the Slot.It 15x8 style front wheels) the bracing and B-NOVA/Slot.It guide conversion will cure the handling ills (mainly deslotting) of any Pioneer on a wood track. The only time the Charger deslotted from all those fast laps was when we pushed it too hard through a corner and the rear end became very crossed up. In other words a rear-end, rather than front-end deslot. That only happened about three or four times though.

The B-NOVA adapter and styrene stuff is very cheap. Slot.It guides with braid around $10. Most of the 'cost' is your own labour with the file.

I forgot to get some of those Sloting Plus Victor bearings, those would have been good

Edited by Burglar, 12 July 2012 - 11:45 PM.

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#15 Burglar

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 09:29 PM

I will be running the axles, wheels, and tyres from this car in my Jerry Titus Mustang for the T/A races at Maesbury this Saturday. I will have to buy some more bits
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#16 Roger Miller

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 09:46 PM

Burglar,

Better late than never.................u seen this.

http://www.slotcarco...xle-Mounts-c62/

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...............Take it easy

#17 Burglar

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 09:58 PM

I have those in my Scalextric Mustang, and I am currently modifying some slightly to suit an RMS/Scalextric Cougar (with the front axle moved forward). They work well, but are finicky to install. They don't fit in the Pioneer chassis because the floor is not flat
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#18 Burglar

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 10:02 PM

With the Cougar conversion you basically need to cut the front 'foot' off each mount with a saw, and the ribs on the side of the chassis need to be ground off and those weird little round posts that don't seem to do anything on the Mustang chassis need to be ground away a bit so that you can move everything forward to line the wheels up properly in the wheel wells.

I haven't finished it properly yet but if my friend Steve's theory is correct moving the axle forward will make it handle more like a long wheelbase version of the '69 Camaro than a Mustang chassis. He argues that the shorter distance between the guide and the front axle centreline makes a difference that explains why the Camaro has the edge.
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#19 Burglar

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 12:59 AM

I eventually tried getting those stock plastic front bushes out of my Jerry Titus Mustang and replacing them with the Victor bushings, but the braced mountings were so rigid that the when the bushes did move it was at the expense of the front mount clips on each side. I cleaned it up a little with that Dremel lawnmower blade sharpening tool that comes with the SCC bushing alignment kit, and then glued the Victors into those mounts, making sure everything was well aligned and putting extra glue between the mounts and the brace. It should hold okay.I could always add some more bracing at the front I guess. I also finally installed some Slot.It SIPA02 bronze bushings at the back and aligned the axle with the alignment kit, and pulled the wiring out to help get the rear magnet back in (I need it to trigger a timing system). The bushes definitely feel nice at the front, not binding at all but no real slop.
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#20 Roger Miller

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 12:14 PM

Burglar,
Howdy.

The Slot it bushes are ok,

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but the NSR ones are lower friction.

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...............Take it easy





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