Hand Out Motors At State/Natioal Competitions

[Camber]

Can of worms time!!!!!!!!

 

Looking at mostly hard body 1/24 scale racing, what are peoples opinions regarding handout motors?

 

OAPR appears to be a bit of a hybrid hard body/flexi event and APC is mostly hard body/true scale except for can-am which was lexan bodies last year (no rules posted for can-am as yet for 2012).

 

Odd that some classes at the APC are hand out, others are not. Personally, I'd like to see hand out motors for all classes in these events.

 

Looking for opinons, especially from less experienced racers like myself.

 

More experienced guys....please dont insult our intelligence with the bullshit that motor tweaking dosn't happen because most people know that it does either by luck, money or tricks of the trade. This has been happening ever since slot cars were invented.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Camber

[munter]

Interesting problem. I know they do it at some events in the US.

 

I have never experienced it.

 

This is the trouble with trying to keep the playing field even...it rarely is.

 

Using FK type(falcon) motors is one way to limit tweaking but using a motor( S16D) that everyone can tweak might be the answer.

 

I'll be interested in what others say here.

Edited April 29, 2012 by munter

[Ringie]

I agree with you Cam ,at most race meets every one runs around about the same gear ratio ,but when you are running the same ratio as some one else & get left behind you start to wonder whats going on,Iam only an average driver but like to compete in these comps . I know chassis set has a lot to do to ,but there mest be away to check motors ? maybe motors just have to be looked at more closely for tampering with?

 

Ringie

[Noel B]

I am not the most experienced driver on this Forum .... How ever how many of you set your bearing carriers up with an alignment tool ?? How many hand ream the carriers with a reamer ?? I can tell you doing these time consuming things do equal sustainable lap times as the motor load is a lot less.. How many racers set their ratios with a roll out chart ?? If it's a fixed ratio we usually don't fix a tyre diam so you can definitely find a roll out that will make your car faster then the guy beside you with the same pinion and spur.. Since I started doing all the little things my cars have become faster and that's with no attention given to the motor other than running it in.. So you are right when you say that it is not an even playing field because unless you do these things you will never be as fast as the so called fast guys..

 

Noel B

Edited April 29, 2012 by Noel B

[Springbok Racer]

Hi guys,

 

I'll repeat here what I've contributed elsewhere;

 

The question of handout motors is always the prerogative of event organizers, but that decision also implies that entrants must be willing to pay for such handouts. That generally increases the entry fees - which is usually not popular. In overseas events where motors and tyres are handed out, the individual class ENTRY FEES can be as high as €50 per entrant so as to recover the cost of these items. In most cases the organizers of these events are not commercially connected and cannot rely on profit margins to cope with some of the related incidentals.

 

In the end organizers have to weigh up the possibility of motor cheates and the impact of their actions, against the possibilities of handing out a dud motor to someone. Should handout motors be the go, then organizers also have to dyno (or check definatively) all the motors and exclude the top 10 and bottom 10 % - this again add to the costs as the "unusable" motors have to be paid for as well.

 

Just my two cents, but perhaps a simple challenge will sort out the assumed 'motor tampering'. How about going up to the guy with the suspect motor and challenge him, that you can go as fast with his motor fitted in your car as he did. If you can, then perhaps you've proven that the only advantage he had over you, was the horsepower of his motor. If he declines your challenge, then ask him to fit your motor to his car and go a fast as you did with your car. I have been in clubs where acceptance of these challenges were made mandatory and it always proved (in motor classes with sealed cans) that the difference in perormance was driving skill and car setup.

 

Cheers,

 

Jan

 

 

[Richo99]

Hi All,

 

What can seem like "motor cheating", can be pure car prep. I know racers up here in Qld like Jan, Werner, Andrew, Simon & Dave spend a long time on car set up. A car out of square for instance will drain power like you wouldn't believe. If the front end is out of square with the back, you are driving a bulldozer and will be quite slow compared to one that is straight. Noel has also mentioned alignment of bearings which will make a huge difference. It easy to assume someone must be cheating when they blast away.

 

The Plafit motors we have used over the last few years in model car racing in Qld have been pretty good, & I have had some quick cars and slow cars. The quick cars have had more preparation time spent. With our club racing and racers in Toowooomba, I know there is zero motor tampering going on. Its car prep and the way you drive them. How you come out of the last corner onto a straight makes a difference to speed as well...

 

We had handout motors in the Qld Champs a couple of years ago, and surprise, the same people with the excellent car prep won. It is a lot more work though having hand out motors and whilst minimal cost to racers, the time to prep the motors and test is too much for the number of guys we have racing.

 

In saying that, there will be always someone who may test the boundaries and forget that they are not racing for sheep stations, but playing with toy cars. If you have to cheat to win, good on you. It may be a pretty miserable life that person has, if that is what they have to do. I never saw the last National Slot Car Champ appear on TV or in the papers

 

Before we assume the guy next to us is cheating, check your car. Unless of course he is running a higher spec motor with a Fox II stamp on it

 

My 2 bobs worth but remember to keep what we do in perspective. We are grown men playing with toy cars

 

regards

 

Pete

Edited April 29, 2012 by Richo99

[Richo99]

 

 

Just my two cents, but perhaps a simple challenge will sort out the assumed 'motor tampering'. How about going up to the guy with the suspect motor and challenge him, that you can go as fast with his motor fitted in your car as he did. If you can, then perhaps you've proven that the only advantage he had over you, was the horsepower of his motor. If he declines your challenge, then ask him to fit your motor to his car and go a fast as you did with your car. I have been in clubs where acceptance of these challenges were made mandatory and it always proved (in motor classes with sealed cans) that the difference in perormance was driving skill and car setup.

 

 

Hi Jan, there was a class of 1:1 speedway racing that had a motor change rule. $500 and you could swap motors. Stopped someone spending 1000's on development as someone could swap your motor.

 

I wonder if something like that could work. say with Plafit Motors, $10 + your motor if you think someone has a rocket.

 

I think a lot will find its car prep....

 

Pete

[Noel B]

Why doesn't some body direct these questions to an organizer of an event like Shane for the MCN or Werner for the APC.. There really is no need for it as I for one have never seen a sealed motor go any harder that any body else's .. Jan's just proposed that we race another slot car class that is run successfully over seas I think the whole motor debate is being miss directed and not that I think it should be directed at anybody any way..

 

Noel B

[Camber]

Why doesn't some body direct these questions to an organizer of an event like Shane for the MCN or Werner for the APC.. There really is no need for it as I for one have never seen a sealed motor go any harder that any body else's .. Noel B

 

Thats why I kicked off this thread under Axmans advice and following on from comments I made in Jans OAPR thread, I'm sure Werner and Shane have read this thread. As for sealed motors, NSR Kings and all Plafit motors are open can. Only the Ninco class at the MCN has a sealed motor.

 

If handout motors are too hard and/or expensive, why not do a simple RPM check on the motors at scrutineering. I small piece of duct tape on the rear wheel and a laser RPM checker will soon see which motors are over spec. Have a spread sheet matrix with all gear ratios and what the rear wheel RPM should be for the different motors, you wouldn't even need a calculator. This check would take no longer than 20 seconds. OK it doesn't take torque and drive line losses into consideration, but will still give a good indication that the motor is legal.

 

- Cam

[axman]

Hi Cam, I've gotta say when I got back into Slotcars about 4 years ago I was sure "something was going on". I kept buying motors and I kept going slow. One day I went to Hornsby for a big Plafit race with Garry J. He was appaled at my lack of car preparation. Most significant was my "rolling resistance" from bad bearings, poor chassis alignment and far too much weight on the guide. It was only when I addressed these issues did I start going fast. Noel B has helped me raised " the bar" further in my car prep to the point that the motor is the last thing I will change if a car is not performing . Role-out, car exit speed onto the straight, (handling) gear mesh and ratio,, rear end rotational vibration and correct hand controller settings are my "tuning" priority's - As Dave from Toowoomba said, it will be the same front runners with or without handout motors.

 

[Camber]

Thanks Kim, I understand where you are coming from. Rolling resistance certainly makes a big difference.

 

Now its time to shoot myself in the foot.

 

I built up a Mini Z to run at the MCN this year with a pointer motor and thought I'd give it a run at Dapto last Thursday night. We have switched to Fox motors and wasn't too concerned about running up the top end of the field, just wanted to give it run. Zero bluprinting done on this car, literally slapped it together earlier that week though I did run the motor in. I would have been happy to run mid pack, to my surprise I won (see the times and results under Xtreme trax). This car was pretty quick, losing only a small amount of ground down the straight (which is 10m long). Following on from this thread, I did a motor check about 10 mins ago. 7267RPM at the wheels, 11/36 gearing.

36/11 x 7267 = 23,783RPM through the gears!!! this would be well over 24,000 RPM at the motor which should be 21,700RPM. Judging by the way the car went, it seems to figure and I would not be surprised if I was labelled a cheat had the rules been that we had to run Pointers.

 

Will I take this motor to the APC/MCN if RPM checks were in place? No

Will I take this motor to the APC/MCN if no RPM checks are in place? Absolutely, assuming I don't find a better one

 

[Guest jazzbell]

This topic on the hand out motor amazes me that it's brought up as theirs only 4 weeks to go for MCN.

 

I know the question was towards more the 1/24 scale classes/plafit on hand out motors. Main reason we don't have it is cost. I've been busting my balls to get the MCN numbers to what we are going to have and if the entry was at $50 per class we wouldn't have a nationals because we'd have know numbers.Remember you always get the same travelers,but you need the locals to make the numbers too

 

11 classes at MCN X$50= $550 entry. I've struggled for some of our local tight asses to enter 1 class at $15.Remember every other motor other than the pointer/fox your looking up around the $30 TO $25 mark.

 

As the above say,car prep.

 

Yes cars will be scrutineered to make sure motors are not played with,but know lazer light show.The numbers we have where not going to have an extra 5 seconds.

 

regards shane a

 

team thunderbird

 

[Springbok Racer]

Thanks Kim, I understand where you are coming from. Rolling resistance certainly makes a big difference.

 

Now its time to shoot myself in the foot.

 

Will I take this motor to the APC/MCN if RPM checks were in place? No

Will I take this motor to the APC/MCN if no RPM checks are in place? Absolutely, assuming I don't find a better one

 

 

Cam,

 

Guess you have shot yourself in the foot.

 

If this 'Pointer' of yours is straight out the bag and the RPM is not right - how will hand out motors solve the problem? Or at the same time, how can you start this topic then by suggesting that fast motors are due to tampering?

 

Maybe it's time for the mods to pull this tread, before all the good work that Jazzbell and the Thunderbirds guys have done for the MCN is undone by irresponsible comments.

 

Enough said.

 

Jan

[Camber]

Hi Shane,

 

I agree it's too hard for the MCN, the majority of cars are tuned with the motors glued in anyway. Have a look at my first post, I was looking at the possibility for the APC and the new OAPR competitions (was a continuation from OAPR thread) which is why I put it in the 1/24 section of the forum, the MCN is generally regarded as a 1/32 competition. Perhaps I should have been more specific in the title, apologies for any stress caused.

 

- Cam

[Camber]

_{Yikes, I really have created s**tstorm haven't I !!!!!!!!!!!!}

 

_{I did say it was a can of worms.}

 

_{Please accept my sincere aplogies to all people I have obviously offended. I'll let it go with my tail between my legs.}

 

_Regards

 

_{- Cam}

Edited April 29, 2012 by Camber

[Garry J]

Testing a DC motor under (virtually) no load means nothing.

 

As long as it doesn't have mechanical issues and has decent brushes and comm the only limiting factors to how high it revs are coil decay time and balance.

 

Since all motors of the same breed should have the same winds then balance is the main concern. If you're lucky enough to get a motor with good balance then by all means put it away for big races, I'm sure all the top guys will be doing something similar.

 

As for hand out motors, as long as I'm only paying retail and have a chance to return a dud (or even buy another one) I don't care, but it's much too late to introduce for the MCN. Personally, if I had to organise a big event I don't think I'd want the extra work and expense involved in organising and monitoring hand outs. The more rules you have the more work for the scrutineers and the longer it takes to run.

 

My personal view is that the motor is only one aspect of performance. I regularly get racers commenting on how my motors are always fast and I always tell them that it's the car that's fast not the motor. As an example I recently gave Noel B one of my bearing alignment tools and he says it makes a big difference to performance. Just another item in the long list of dumb things I've done.

[Springbok Racer]

Hi guys,

 

I guess the reason for handout motors has always been to try and level the performance of motors and to prevent competitors from doing magic on them. How about this suggestion:

 

- Each driver brings a new motor (in it's bag) to the National Titles and when he enters a class, he hands that motor to the organizers who mark and number the motor. Then the motor goes into a pool together with the other entrants motors in the same class.

 

- When the class is called, the entrants line up, pick a number from a bag, and is handed a motor with the corresponding number. The drivers then get 15 minutes to fit the motor and return the car to scrutineering.

 

- During the 15 minutes drivers can do whatever they like to or with the motor. This include a prep they believe in or not anything at all.

 

I have experienced the 15 minute situation at International racing and it has worked very well.

 

This way everyone has an equal chance and is able to buy their motor where and when it suits them, and at a price they choose.

 

Cheers,

 

Jan

Edited June 18, 2012 by Springbok Racer

[paulthetexan]

Not having competed at elite level this is only a personal opinion , but I believe prepping a motor is no different than any other part of building a winning car. Whether it's axle/bearing alignment , true fitment of parts , gear ratio , tyre size , body choice , weight distribution etc. If you can prep a motor within the guidelines without dismantling it , well done . You shouldn't be penalised because the next guy hasn't taken the time to develop that part of the overall package .

[first corner crash]

Not having competed at elite level this is only a personal opinion , but I believe prepping a motor is no different than any other part of building a winning car. Whether it's axle/bearing alignment , true fitment of parts , gear ratio , tyre size , body choice , weight distribution etc. If you can prep a motor within the guidelines without dismantling it , well done . You shouldn't be penalised because the next guy hasn't taken the time to develop that part of the overall package .

 

+1

I raced at the mcn and had some cars with strong motors. They were classes i was used to running and have built up a bank of motors which are put aside for events and i don't use them for general racing or running. My Ninco and NSR mosler hadnt seen a track since last year. My plafit 1/32 cars were both great cars handling wise but didn't have the same legs as guys who had longer experience with these cars. Although Plafits are sealed like any motor they are variable. I have had orange endbell slot.its rev from 20 to 24800rpm. Why would you race a 20k motor? Cam got a great pointer as seen earlier in this thread good luck to him. If i were him i wouldn't race it unless it was a major event as that is all part of the prep.

 

Like any hobby it takes time to be competitive and I am not as competitive in the metal chassis classes as the plastics yet. That is part of the appeal.

[shadow_rusty]

If you go down the testing path, you will need to test torque as well as rpm...

2 motors with the same torque behave very differently based on torque.

For example, the NC5 vs Sparker... Both 20k @ 14v, but the NC5 has almost double the torque...

[axman]

So thats why i'm so slow in Group C and Can Am... my Fox motors must be wrongly labeled Pointers...

Edited August 23, 2013 by axman